Why your sales emails get ignored — Mark Kosoglow (former Outreach CRO) on the fix

That's the thing that people don't consider. There is a Goldilocks zone of sales activity. If you automate stuff to the level of toxic automation and you go past it, now the porridge is too hot. Guess what? Nobody eats it.

Welcome back to another episode of the Revenue Reimagine Podcast. We have with us today Mark Koow, who is the co-founder and CEO of Operator AI. The former CRO at Catalyst, where he took them from 5 to 10 million in 14 months in some of the toughest economic times we've seen, and employee number one at Outreach, where he scaled from zero to over 230 million in revenue. We're talking really small numbers here, Mark. So I'd say it's safe to say that he knows a thing or two about building and scaling revenue in orgs of all sizes and all economic climates. He's taken all of those years of experience and is now determined to help you break through the great ignore. Mark, thanks for joining, man.

Wow. I think I need to put that last like five seconds on my website. Like you come in and you hear Adam talking about the great ignore and that nighttime DJ voice. Let's go. So I used to do radio, right? True story. No, I did not. That's why Dale has me do all the intros. We gave so I say often, if I could just do this all day long and make like a reasonable living, I'd be a very happy person. But I'm happy to be your voiceover on the website, and I won't even charge.

Awesome. Thanks for joining, Mark. Tons of experience there. So let's kick off. This is a little bit different. What is the great ignore? Let's give the audience like a taste of what you guys are doing, and then the second part of that question is, like, why start Operator? And I think they probably blend together.

Yeah, yeah, I think they do blend together. Listen, the great ignore is the fact that it takes 20 to 25 touches now to get somebody's interest. That's not even to book a meeting. That's just to like peak their interest. And the great ignore, really, if I boil it down to its essence, it's the fact that we're sending such lazy, automated, horrible, irrelevant, uncompelling messaging that's so self-centered and so wrong. And we took those ideas that actually were semi-decent and sort of worked back in the day when in the golden age of sales, before the economic downturn, and we scaled that out of control. Now we have things like GDPR, CCPA, and do-not-call lists, which are societal pushbacks and government law bodies and people making legislation against our own crappy salesmanship. That's what that is. And that's led to now people being to the point where, rather than kind of try to wade through the noise to find a few signals, they've just given up, and they don't care about the signals anymore because there's just too much noise.

So I feel in a way somewhat responsible for this because of my role at Outreach. And I always like to say this because it's super important. We talked about this a lot at Outreach in the beginning, and honestly constantly, about how people would abuse the platform and create this. And it's, you know, this is probably controversial—maybe I shouldn't say this or whatever. But no, please, please, let's do some controversy. It's like a gun. A gun never killed anybody. A person shooting a gun is what killed somebody. Outreach didn't create this. People using Outreach with ill intent created this, despite the fact that we had a myriad of settings and stuff that we put inside the application to prevent people from doing this.

And it's funny. We first saw this really quickly with a guy named Vlad. We nicknamed him internally Vlad the Destroyer. Vlad was the first person that sent a thousand emails in a day, and he broke our system way back when. We're like, "Wait, Vlad, you shouldn't be doing this." Well, it did pressure test some stuff and led to some, you know, more interesting and robust infrastructure. But then Vlad was the first person to send 10,000 emails in a day, and he busted it. And then Vlad was the first person to try to send 100,000 a day, and that's when we kicked Vlad the Destroyer off the platform. But like he pushed the limits of this kind of like, "I'm going to just automate the crap out of everything." And we did a lot of work in the product after that to prevent that. But anyway, that's kind of going down a rat hole. But that's what the great ignore is.

And the reason that I'm after it is I love sales. I love salespeople. I think that salespeople are some of the best educators on the planet and introducers of new ideas, and all of that value of part of salesmanship is going away because people are just ignoring us now. And we brought it on ourselves. But we can fix it, I think.

And it's not even sales. It's also marketing, right? I mean, it's always like, it's the same type of thing. Like, if something is working a little bit, like people always want to push more, push more. Like, look at what's happening with GPT and chat and all that kind of stuff. It's making even those messages even worse. Adam loves getting those every day. Send them to Adam more.

A good metaphor is this. Like, 10, 15 years ago, how many websites had banner ads? All of them. And it was just like, what? We all did with it, we just started ignoring it. It was just noise. Except for the punch the monkey one, where like you could actually interact with it.

No, just that one became adorable too after you punched the monkey a couple times. But you know what I mean? What it did is it evolved something that was spammed to hell on every website on the planet that everybody ignored. What did we start to evolve into? We evolved to Instagram ads, and I talk to more and more people that are like, "Yeah, I kind of shop on Instagram." I just talked to somebody that's like, "When I shop for something, I actually go on Instagram and kind of trick the algorithm into giving me ads."

Yeah, Adam, you're doing it too.

That's where I return 90% of it. But I, you know, my wife will tell you, I'm a mark on Instagram. Like, oh, that pan looks cool. Let's order it. But you know, that's where I think we need to start to evolve as salespeople. Is can we be so relevant, so compelling, so inside what people are doing that what we're presenting to them causes the ads to be valuable? And if you said to somebody five years ago, "Oh, yeah, I love the Instagram ads." Every think you're crazy.

Yeah. It's funny because everything has changed, right? Like I get probably 10 to 15 emails a day, Mark. You probably get more with CEO and co-founder. That's basically, "Hi, Mark, because you're the CEO and co-founder of X, you must struggle with Y, and I could solve it with Z." Zero personalization, zero relevance. Or my favorite is like, "Do you need 20 guaranteed leads a week in your inbox from someone who has 2,000 followers on LinkedIn?"

And the world is changing, and I'm super curious to hear how Operator is going to make a difference because we, like you, love sales, love the profession of sales, and certainly think that when you're adding value and you have a relevant offer that speaks to relevant pain in a timely manner, that that is good cold outreach. What isn't good cold outreach is, "Hi, I have this product, and you're a CEO. Could you use it?" But before we go there, I actually just saw this the other day, and I don't know if you've seen this or not, and I'm curious how this will play into Operator. Because I feel like Outreach has done a lot to not become a spamming tool. There's plenty of spamming tools out there now where it's like, "Oh, get your 170 domains and your 54 emails per domain, and you know, feel free to send them out." But Google has announced that starting October 15th, they are stepping up their game with Gemini to identify spam more effectively.

Secondary domain, like, did this like six months ago, and second SEC you did. Hold on one second. I'm going to try not to monopolize, but secondary domains like tri.com, whatever, et cetera, are going to be identified. Redirects from those domains are going to be tracked, and ultimately they're going to block you based on that. Warm-up tools gone. Like, that shit's not going to work either. So how do you stay ahead of this curve because all these things that tools like Instantly and SmartLead and Warmly and all these ones that are, or not Warmly—I'm sorry, warm-up tools—that are like, "Oh, we're going to fix it. We're just going to get you all these subdomains, and you're good." You're not. Yeah, what do you do? And how does Operator stand out from that crowd to keep outbound relevant?

Lot of stuff on that, so let's unpack it a little bit. First of all, there's the letter of the law and there's the spirit of the law. The spirit of spam laws is to keep people from spamming us. The letter of the law says if you do these behaviors, we're going to mark you as spam. So just because you find spammy behaviors that aren't listed in the letter of the law and you're not technically spamming according to the legal definition, you're still spamming. You're still violating the spirit of the law. And you know what happens when people find edge cases and cracks to get around the things that have been put in place to protect us and do stuff like that? Eventually they get shut down. And like I said, about six months ago...

I did a post and I'm like, listen, let's take this AI SDR thing all the way to the end. And I got ludicrous at the end because I was kind of like, listen, in the end there'll be an AI anti-SDR AI that battles the AI SDRs. And what they'll do is they'll start to figure out like, "Oh my God, we got to do this, this, and this." Next thing you know, we got World War III and the Terminators are running all over the planet because the AI created a robot to go knock on your door because it circumvented spam law or whatever. You know what I mean? So like that, that's being ridiculous. And I'm a sci-fi geek, so of course my brain went there. But I think that these kind of cheat-your-way—I use that term, I don't know if that's the right term—but that's what it feels like to me. It feels like if we're all playing a game and there's somebody sitting across the table from you that's playing by different rules and bending the rules and not quite playing it, it's just not fun for anybody. When they're winning, so like, you know, maybe those people that use that stuff were winning. And the same thing, have you heard of this spin tax stuff too?

Yeah, yeah. Like we were just talking about that with the client yesterday.

Yeah, spin tax, domain warmup, all of that stuff is meant to violate the spirit of the law. And eventually the technology will catch up to it and it will be obsolete. And if you built your GTM motion on that, you will start to fail.

So what is Operator doing? The thing that I see great growth hackers doing—the ones that actually provide huge value in the outreach that compels people to respond to an offer or a message—the thing that I see the top 10% of sales reps do that, you give them 12 accounts and sure enough by the end of the year they got opportunities with six or seven of them that are humongous. Right? The thing that I've done—dozens and dozens and dozens of interviews since I started, since I started to move in the direction of founding Operator, and I've done years and years and years of coaching and helping people that are in those same spots and using some of those services. Right? The core thing I found is they have real business acumen. And what they're able to do is typically find unstructured, extremely valuable data somewhere on the Internet or somewhere. They bring it into a place, they analyze it, they take their time, they find what's interesting, and then they get so excited about why this person or company should be a customer that they can't help but figure out a super compelling way to get them into a conversation. Because they're so excited to share and to teach and to give value because of what they figured out.

That's the process that I think Operator is trying to create. Is: How do we take a core set of lists and help you sharpen what your ICP definition is, because most people have a super sloppy ICP definition? How do we help them build that good list? How do we then go identify and fetch this unstructured data that we can add to that core data set that is extremely valuable and personable? How do we then analyze that data for insights that are interesting? And then how do we make sure that those insights are actually compelling enough for us to reach out?

It's okay to take a list of a thousand companies and say we don't have something to say to 700, 15 of them. It's okay, y'all, because guess what? You don't waste time on the 715 that are never going to do anything. You convert the 285 that you can.

And this is the number one thing I see. When I started Operator, people were like, "Well, Mark, you have more accurate data? You have better coverage?" And I'm like, "No, we're not going to have the most accurate data. We're not going to have the best coverage. Do you know why you need more accurate data?"

And they're like, "Why?"

I said, "Let me do a math problem for you. How many contacts do you have in your database right now?"

"200,000."

"All right, great. 200,000. What's your data accuracy level?"

"50%."

"All right, so that means you have 100,000 people that you know their name and address and phone number and the right job they're at. You can't convert 100,000 people into your next $2 million of revenue. You don't have an accuracy problem. You have a conversion problem or product problem or product-market fit problem. Like there's a lot of other problems that you have."

Yeah, you don't need more accurate data. You don't need better coverage. You just need to fix the stuff that's meaning that's not letting 100,000 people that you know you can reach out to convert over into customers. And then the last thing is sending that insight off—when the structured data—to create it into other tools that you can use to reach out and do all that kind of stuff. Operator's fuel, not engine. We want to deliver high octane fuel to the GTM machines that you've created inside your stack.

So let's bounce off of this one a little bit. You do some investing. We're talking to almost individuals now, but it's not really the individual's challenge, right? This is an investor problem. Because they're like, "Okay, they're—I listen to Kyle Norton and Jason Lints podcast earlier today, and what they were talking about was like, 'We're doing playbooks from like five years ago which are not relevant today.' So investors are like, 'More volume, more data, call out to more people.' Then that comes to the CEO or the CRO, and so like the sales people are almost like stuck in between. Because some sales people are like, 'I want to do more quality over quantity,' and then you're getting from the top down, 'No, you got to do quantity, because if we do 100 calls a day,' and like they start doing this conversion math which is totally irrelevant. So how do we stop that insanity at the investor or the executive level?"

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Y'all have heard the phrase, I'm sure: sales is a numbers game. But most people only understand half of what that phrase means. The way that most people understand it is, if I don't do enough activity, I won't get enough results. That's like—would you say 100% of people—you know what the flip of that coin is? If I do too much activity, I don't get results. Interesting.

And see, that's the thing that people don't consider. There is a Goldilocks zone of sales activity. If you automate stuff to the level of toxic automation and you go past it, now the porridge is too hot. Guess what? Nobody eats it. And if you don't put enough heat on the porridge, the porridge is too cold. Nobody eats it because you haven't done enough. There's a Goldilocks zone where that porridge and oatmeal with the little golden raisins and a little brown sugar—let me eat some of that stuff. That's where we need to be.

No raisins? Raisins, come on. No raisins. Some raisins and some oatmeal. Do you—all right, give Adam some beets. He likes beets.

Beets? I like beets too.

Oh, I hate beets. They taste like dirt.

It's—here, wash them first before you eat them. Then they don't taste—I mean, yeah, you definitely do. My wife loves beets. Like she loves a good beet salad. Like it's nobody's business.

Sales, the saying that sales is a numbers game—I think we hear it every single company, every founder we work with, right? It's, "Get more contacts, make more calls, get more leads, send more emails," and like ultimately, if you send a hundred emails, like you're going to have more success than if you send five.

Um, and I would argue the opposite. I would argue that if you send five highly tailored, really relevant emails that touch on a pain—exactly what you were saying—I'd rather convert four out of five than two out of a hundred. And spend that time and spend that effort. But people don't do that a lot.

CEOs, I think, have this mindset. And when you talk about like the outdated contacts in HubSpot or Salesforce or whatever your CRM is, like so relevant, I literally just sent a Slack to one of my partners. I'm like, "All right, I marked 4,654 contacts for deletion. They're in there. They haven't been touched in two years. Half of them, you know, show a ton of bad contact data." And the pushback I get from the CEO is, "Well, the ones with bad contact data, like of course delete those, but the others—like why aren't we just emailing them?"

How do you fundamentally change this mindset of non-go-to-market C-level executives who truly still believe, no matter what the data is, that this is not the way you want to do things? Like I feel like we need a reckoning, and nothing has changed it yet, which blows my mind.

So off the top of my head, like the first thing that pops in is, um, what we used to do at Outreach, and I remember early on at Outreach, everybody would say, "Mark, we have Salesforce for this. That's what people say." And I'd be like, "What?"

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Are you talking about they're like, "Yeah, we just I don't see it working." And I had this saying at Outreach: let your passion overcome your professionalism. And I also had a little thing that if I didn't get one complaint about a rep a year about them being too aggressive, they weren't being aggressive enough.

So what I would encourage my reps to do is—and I would listen, I did this myself—I'd be like, "Listen, you don't believe what we do works, all right? Let me just tell you right now, Adam, that's bullshit. I'm about to bring up my screen and show you exactly how I worked you inside of Outreach to get this meeting that you're in right now, all right?" And so there's no argument to that fact right now.

Let's take that to this: if I take any executive to their inbox and spam folder right now, I'm like, "Do you want this madness to continue?" And what are they going to say? "No, I don't like that." Well, then why would you do something that you don't like to other people? Like, we just have to get it through our stupid heads that we're not going to be the outliers. We're not going to be the one that everybody loves to get ten emails from a day or a hundred calls a week, you know what I mean? Like, we got to get that out of our mind. We're just regular people like everybody else. And the things that usually annoy and cause us to ignore buyers—if we do those same behaviors, we'll have that same result in our buyers. It's not just us, right?

So I think that that's a really important thing for an exec to see. Like, "You want to get more spam, Mr. CEO? All right, no problem. We're going to add you into our own cadence, and you're going to start to get lit up by us just like everybody else that is irrelevant, uncompelling, and doesn't have anything interesting to say is doing to you, which you say that you hate, but you're asking us to do." I know—hypocritical, contradicting behaviors that are very—but every day, it's every day it's the CEO who hires a BDR team, but then is to the BDR that cold calls them. Like, that's my—we see it all the time, Adam. You have heard it: the VP of Sales that you've cold called that said, "I don't take cold calls," but is on the floor yelling at their reps to make cold calls all day. Those people need to get out, you know what I mean? Disgusting. It's just old school go-to-market is not a modern go-to-market, but that's exactly the same though as a CEO that's telling you to spam your TAM when they don't like to be spammed. If they like to be spammed, all right, cool, then fine, we'll follow your lead. But nobody does.

And is this just a symptom of the real problem—the underlying problem—which is they don't know the ICP? They're just going out after everybody, and they don't really understand how to articulate the value to what they're trying to sell. So we have two big challenges. Like, when you go talk to a head of sales, CEO, like, "Give me your value proposition—ten words or less—that no one else can say." It's like crickets. And then it's like, "What's your ICP?" And it's like, "Well, my TAM is this." And it's like, "No, not your TAM. Like, who can you sell to? What are you trying to sell to? And what's that value to that person?" Like, isn't that the real problem?

Yeah, I think the real problem to me is—um, I did a post on this recently, and it's like a little grid, like, you know, an axis. The y-axis is the level of personalization. And Adam talked about the lowest form of personalization, which is: you have a problem, do you have this problem? Here's how we fix it. One step up from that, but not much better, is industry, all right? Hey, we kind of know that you sell nails. Most nail manufacturers have this problem. The next one is persona, all right? We know that you are the lead engineer on the machine that makes nails. They usually have this problem, do you, right? Those things used to work. They don't anymore.

The next up, though, is company. Hey, Acme Nails, we see that you've done these things. That starts to get pretty good. And then the last is the person: Hey, Adam, line manager at Acme Nails, we've heard that you are having a problem with this in your plant on these machines. Okay, that's—you can see—the level of relevancy and how much how compelling it is goes up on the x-axis is how hard is the data to get. So if the data is easy to get—if I can just do a ZoomInfo search or a little quick, you know, Google search and find the data—even if I personalize at the person level, it's not as compelling. The harder the data that is to find, probably the more interesting that it is, right?

So what we're after at Operator—what I think the best reps have always done, what the growth hackers do—is they try to get to the company or person level with hard-to-find data. And when you're in that area of the grid, you are going to be a high-converting outbound machine. And if you can do that at scale, you should do it at scale. But I would argue that most of the time, to reach a level of appropriate relevancy and compellingness, you probably need to reach out to a lot less people than you actually think you can.

I think that last sentence is what holds so true to me: you need to reach out to a lot less people. Pick the right people, manically focus on them, and get rid of the bullshit that just makes you look busy, right? Are you busy or are you productive, Adam?

This just came to me right now because of what you just said, and it goes back to our CEO thing that we were talking about earlier. VPs that don't like whatever—so, um, what does every CRO do over time to the size of territories of reps? Shrink them. They shrink it. Why do they shrink it? Because so you can be more focused. Be more focused, you're gonna get better results. At a small yet, every CEO and board says, "What we need to expand the people, right? Expand, higher, higher, higher, reach out to more people." That's insane. That is hypocritical, self-contradictory behavior.

I see a future LinkedIn post coming from you on this: we all start here yet we always end here, right? Every company, every time, every CEO is like, "CRO, I need you to make those territories smaller. Make them smaller. Get the—make sure those reps really get every drop out of it." But at the same time, "I want you to reach out to even more, more people." It's a mixed message. It doesn't make sense.

When I was at Toast, we started with—um, everyone's TAM, if you will, was like half the state, right? Like your territory covered half the state, and then we dropped it down, you know, several times, and we ended on: if you're a rep at Toast, your territory is six hundred restaurants. Period. The end. Why? Because I want you to know every damn thing about those six hundred restaurants. So you walk in, you know their business better than them. You know who the manager is, who the server is, who's sleeping with who, where you know—true story in restaurants—but you know everything. And when we did that, the reps were like up in arms, right? Like, "What do you mean I'm not going to be able to make as much money? I only have six hundred restaurants. Like, what am I going to do? I need this giant territory." P's comp went like this. Yes, it did. Win rates went like this. Because now you are—the term we used was the mayor of your town. Like, you know everything about everyone, and people want to work with that person versus Mark, who comes in once a month on his rotation because you are restaurant number two hundred twenty-eight. And you went from—com, or you went from industry product personalization to restaurant and owner, and then from easy-to-get information that anybody can find on the web to intimate information that only somebody that is that deep can get into—and boom, you were in the Fun Zone where you actually are starting to get results again, right?

We have to—we always talk about conversion and maximizing conversion, but the way that we always talk about it is: make the pool as big as you can and get as many fish out of as you can. Well, sometimes you just need to shrink the pool. You're going to get the same number of fish, but you're not, like, just, you know, going nuclear on a bunch of other people and things that you know are never going to happen. You're never going to catch. The reality is, like, how many can you really go after? I mean, given time, like, okay, you have six hundred restaurants, but like, that's a lot of restaurants to go sit in, eat in, look at, take notes on, figure out what people are doing. Like, could it be quadruple that? Before, yes? You do that to twenty-four hundred restaurants like you're leaving a lot of fruit on the tree. Like, pick the right fruit and move on.

So yeah, well, you know, there comes that stage of a company where you have to start to climb the tree to get the good fruit. The low-hanging fruit is gone. And when people have, uh, something that—

They put in that gathers low hanging fruit. Unfortunately, they think that that means that it's a really great system, when it's just a really great system for low hanging fruit. And then they scale that up. And like to me, the worst of that is these new AI SDRs. I'm starting to hear rumbling that like they're only converting 20% of their trials over, and most of those are people that aren't churning, but they're not paying anymore either. They're on for free while they fix it.

And like, all we could have a whole podcast on counting customers that aren't paying customers.

Yeah, right, exactly. Or listing on your website. I've seen that movie. Facebook is a customer when it's one rep in one city using Facebook. But any rate, like that's what we have to be just so concerned about is like, how are these low hanging fruit tactics polluting the scale of really strong foundational tactics that, if you've been in sales for more than a minute, you know work? But you know what, you got to hire the right people that can do that work. They got to have the right business acumen. They need to have the right data to do it. And I'm what I'm hoping Operator can do is provide some help on that.

And this is one of the travesties to me. If you're in college and your sales professor gave you a list of 100 accounts and the goal of the project was for you and a small team, a little group project, was to deliver, here's the 20 accounts that are most likely to convert, why? What we're going to do? You would have three or four meetings with your group. You would sit down, you'd do it. You'd have an idea. It might not be right, but it would be logical and you'd think through it. Do you know how many reps do that? Maybe 10%, maybe very, very small. They do it for a grade in college, but they won't do it for money in their bank account.

I'm confused.

Well, once again, that's a leadership thing, because they're talking volume. They're talking like, and we see it all the time. Like we go to coach people and we're like, as simple as, send a recap after you have a call. Like, what are the action items? Who's got the action items? And what are you gonna do? And then like, I look at the recap. It's like, "Thanks for joining us on the call." No. Like, no actions, nothing else. If they even send it, it's ridiculous. Sales 101 stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, if you don't do 101, you never get to 201, 301, 401. And unfortunately right now it takes a PhD, which is like 601 level stuff, to get results. And you know, I think we need to try to level that down a little bit. But like, you know, that's why the great reps, you know what they're not talking about on LinkedIn is how they're not making money. They're not talking about how they don't have pipeline. Like, I love reading Brian Lewan stuff. That dude's crushing. Brian's awesome.

Yeah, and he's out there hoofing it, and he is in the 400 level classes doing that kind of stuff. And you know what? He hasn't been an AE that long. You can get there. You just got to try. You got to work. You got to treat your job like it's college. You got to treat getting a good grade like it, you know, or you have to treat making money like getting a good grade. You gotta work for it.

You nailed it. This was the 101 of this show. I feel like there's so much more that we could get into, and hopefully you will bless us with scheduling a 201 followup, because we are just about out of time. Outbound is changing. Outbound has changed. And if you are not adapting with the times, not only are you not going to sell, your domain's going to get blocked, your company reputation's going to get ruined. And then you're not going to be able to email your customers. So then you're gonna have a whole lot more issues.

Mark, before we wrap it up, are you game for some rapid fire?

Yeah, hit me.

All right, here we go. Ten words or less. Early bird or night owl?

Neither. I work about 8 to 5 and I crush it inside that time period. And I don't work really early or really late.

Cool, that's awesome. If you weren't in tech, what other trade or activity would you do?

My favorite thing to do on the planet is coaching youth sports. I have more fun doing that as a parent than anything else. And if I could make a living coaching youth sports teams, I'd strongly consider it.

That's incredible. What sports?

I did basketball and soccer, but basketball is my favorite. I love it.

Other than your iPhone, what's the one tech gadget you can't live without?

I don't think I have one besides that. I could do without anything. I could do without my phone, be honest with you.

What's your most used emoji in work, Slack, text?

Oh, great question. I'm not sure if it's green check mark, thumbs up, green check mark, or thumbs up. But my favorite email is ghost emoji, apostrophe, D, space, sad face, space, Mark. That's my ghosted email to get people re-engaged. 80% reply rate.

Is that one time? Is that the subject line or in the body of the text?

That's the body of the text. It says, "Adam, empty line, ghost emoji, apostrophe D, line, sad face, line, Mark."

I like it. Last one. Let's wrap this baby up. Dream vacation destination?

I'm going to go Bali.

Bali. Nice, nice. Yeah, I want to sit in one of those huts on the water.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Love to do that. I love it.

Mark, thank you so much for joining. Man, a ton of value. Super excited for Operator AI. Can't wait to learn more, and can't wait to have you back on the show, man.

Thanks, y'all. Appreciate it.

Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it, man. Cheers.