Why Complex Plans Kill Execution (Simplify The Work) | Mike Simmons

Private is the information that's in your head that someone's got to pull out. Public is the information I can go if I go into a system.

>> People are lazy and complacent and it goes back to nothing changes if nothing changes. And we're so used to doing it a certain way or we feel we have to do it this way.

>> You can just add more and keep adding more and keep adding more and then confuse people and then you lose people. And what if you simplify?

Welcome back to another episode of the Bridge the Gap podcast powered by Revenue Reimagined. It is a special episode for two reasons. Number one, I'm going to give myself some props. It is my birthday episode. Number two, there is no one else I would rather record with on my birthday than our guest today, who is Mike Simmons, founder of Catalyst and a strategic operator who helps business leaders make clear, purpose-driven decisions. I can tell you after spending some time with him one-on-one, this is 100% true. He's known for simplifying execution through better communication and helping leaders cut through complexity so their teams can actually move. I was saying when we started the show and I'm going to say it again that my last conversation with Mike was one of the more impactful conversations I've had this year. And Mike's like, "You know, thank you. That means a lot." And I'm like, "Well, the bar is really low because I talk to Dale all day." Now, that said, even if we raised the bar with the other people I talked to besides Dale, it was one of the more impactful conversations and I'm excited to share that impact with our listeners today. So, thanks for being here.

>> Thanks for saying that. And so what was impactful?

>> See, this is what I love about you. You're not just...

>> He doesn't remember.

>> No, I do remember. So the two by two.

>> It's his birthday. We'll have to give him a little bit of grace. Mike...

>> It's my birthday. I thought for an hour red eye.

>> But no, Dale's trying to throw me under the bus being like, "Oh, he's just saying that. He's not going to remember."

Um, so my number one takeaway was the two by two: high impact and do what you love. Um, I literally still have it sitting on my desk. Um, and it's something I think about as I do everything that I do every single day.

>> That's awesome. What do you...

>> Did you really say that, Mike, or did you not say that and he just made that up?

>> No, he did.

>> That would be funny if I did it and he just, right?

>> Yeah. Sounds great, man. And uh, why do you think people struggle with doing what they love or staying focused and getting the things done that bring them energy and have high impact? Like, what gets in the way of that?

>> I should have known this was going to be a podcast of us being interviewed, not you being interviewed. Um, I love it. So I'm curious Dale's thoughts. To me, um, I think people are lazy and complacent and it goes back to nothing changes if nothing changes and we're so used to doing it a certain way or we feel we have to do it this way or this is how we have to make money or we're not willing to put in the time or effort to look at it from a different way. I think all of them...

>> Yeah. I think we're all a series of patterns. And I think as you evolve through life, you get into a place of like it's hard to change sometimes. And like if you don't push yourself outside the boundaries of your current thought process, you get stuck in this rut that you go back and forth on. And so I think that happens more often. And then now what I think is happening is I think everyone believes there's some kind of easy button like, oh, generative AI or like this is going to happen and I'm going to create some kind of workflow and it's going to make it much easier. What I'm learning is that the execution part of the AI world is a lot more difficult. And you actually have to... it's not actually more difficult than anything else. The real problem is like you still got to map it out in some kind of diagram or strategically think about something or build it out and map it and then you can go execute it just like you would five years ago, ten years ago. Like that's not going to change. Um, so anyway, and it maps back to what you do really well, which is like clarity through that execution path and drawing things out, right? Like you and I have talked about this a long time, but I think visuals and the diagramming of things get one gets it out of your head and two like can grab clarity around it.

>> Yeah.

>> You guys both love whiteboarding and diagramming. It is admittedly one of my weaker areas. Um, I'm not great at whiteboarding. I love it when Dale pulls out a whiteboard. I think you all are both great at that. It's something the mind mapping better than me. He's phenomenal at it. I wish I was great at it.

>> What's your hang-up with it?

>> I don't know. Um, I'm not really a visual learner. Um, so that's probably part of it. That's not necessarily my learning style. I'm more of a you know, I listen. I take my own notes and whatnot, but I love the idea of it. I love a good Lucidchart like when I'm building something for a customer, but it's more for them than for me.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's what this tool is for. It's for the people that are in the room to get engaged. It's not for me to go up there and just draw something up on the whiteboard and be like, "Hey, this is cool," and my penmanship peaked in second grade and all of that other kind of stuff. Like, that's not what I'm trying to convey with this tool. What I'm trying to convey is everybody who's in the room, who's part of the conversation, whether it's in this virtual environment or it's in a physical environment, has a voice and has something to contribute. And the big challenge is that we as leaders typically get up in front of the room, think it's about us. We start pontificating or going to slides, ask questions, don't give space for people to respond, and then wonder why everybody goes quiet. But as soon as somebody sees their words up here on a whiteboard, even if it's not written well and we know what it says, like now you're part of the conversation. Like you contributed to that. It's not me. And I think that's the thing that to me, I've realized a couple of different things over the last ten years of operating the business. It's you—I missed retreats. I missed being together with teams. So then I joined masterminds to have that kind of experience. I missed the engagement of being able to hand a marker off to a client in a meeting and be able to do and build on the whiteboard together. Like I learned what the ZBB line is from Intel, being in a room with people at Intel while a customer success person and going back and forth with a marker. Like these are the things that happen in that kind of environment. And what's super cool is the technology now has allowed us with a lab mic and a good camera and good lighting to bring this into the virtual environment if you're not able to do it in the physical environment. And it's very different than me like if I'm writing notes down here and onto a digital whiteboard and then having it present on a screen. It's very different than turning around and you seeing the back of my head and like all of that kind of stuff, right? So it's just an experience and there's...

>> Oh yeah.

>> Have you tried the digital whiteboards and stuff?

>> Yeah, I've done a couple of different things with them. Like I used to use an iPad before when my office was set up differently. So like I was in a different room in the house before and I didn't have the—I actually had a fake screen behind me kind of thing in that kind of space and then moved to a point where I had a wall and the shadows were off and then put a smaller whiteboard up and then put a bigger whiteboard. This whiteboard is seven feet by five feet.

>> Oh wow.

>> Big whiteboard.

>> It is. It can take up a lot of space.

>> It's like three feet taller than Dale.

>> The...

>> It's like three feet taller than Dale.

>> It's wide. Well, wider, you know, kind of like not tall. So the um...

>> Yeah. All right. We could go super deep on all of this kind of stuff. Um but there's—you can go out there and you can get tools and they're not super expensive.

>> Yeah.

>> And the impact is amazing if that's the kind of experience you want to create. So I mean, one of the things, Adam, it's going to be really tough for you to enjoy and appreciate the whiteboard stuff if you don't have a whiteboard. Um, you know, in kind of the background. But if it's not something that draws, gives you energy, then...

# Podcast Transcript

You partner with somebody else who gets energy out of doing that kind of work. You partner up with a Dale, and then now you and Dale can create some really cool things together. So that was the point of that whole "energy versus impact" two-by-two. You'll find people out there who get energy out of the things that suck the life out of you. The key is going out and finding them.

**100%.** I'm taking on something. Jeez. So Mike, let's dive in a little bit. I mean, this is an amazing conversation, but I'm so curious.

Dale wants to stick to his damn agenda. Mike, I love what people say. This is an amazing conversation, but it's amazing, but I don't want to continue it. Well, so but this actually brings into what you were just saying of clarity driving execution. Like this is not anything different, but it's like how does that execute? How does like executing or that clarity drive the non-complication of execution? Like why do people want to move towards complexity when things can get simple and then they can just check them off the list? Like you see so many people make simple things complex. Why do people work for large organizations?

I ask myself that every time I talk to someone who works for a large organization as someone who started my career working for a public company.

Yeah. What happens in public companies?

You can get lost.

You can hide.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You can get lost. You can hide. So what happens in complexity? You can hide the real reason why we're not achieving results.

Right. 100%.

You can always come up with a different piece. Explains why Dale gives me some giant spreadsheet every time I ask him for something. You can just add more and keep adding more and keep adding more and then confuse people and then you lose people. But if you simplify and you have a really clear set of strategy and aligned tactics to achieve a result and you do the work, the tactics, then you either realize that the work didn't work.

The work didn't work.

You did the work. Now you know the work didn't work, so it wasn't the right work. So now you can change, or you didn't do the work because it wasn't all of these things. It wasn't this giant to-do list. Like how many people have a giant to-do list?

A lot.

How many people add more to that to-do list?

Every one of them.

How many times have you ever added more to somebody's to-do list?

Frequently.

So like we keep adding more and more and then we wonder, well, why aren't people getting the things done? Well, it's not because they don't want to get the thing done. It's because they're not really sure what they're working on, why they're working on it, how it aligns, and all of that kind of stuff. So by simplifying, then you can really hone in on the data and start making some decisions. Is it that I didn't do the work? Is it that I couldn't do the work? Is it that I did the work and I just didn't do it well? Is it that I did the work, I did it well, and the work didn't actually work? All of those things give us information to be able to refine our strategy and tactics to achieve a different result, or realize, hey, you know what, maybe that result isn't what we really want.

I like "I did the work, but it didn't work." You know, when you talk about the to-do list, so I'm anti-paper, generally speaking.

Yeah.

But I do have a little notepad and they're separate for every single client because that's my OCD. I've tried to move to iPad. I just can't.

He won't.

I can't. I've tried.

This is the pattern.

Dale. Dale. Quiet. Dale. Let the guest talk. Have you tried an ink device?

Yeah. I tried a Remarkable.

Remarkable. Yeah. Cool.

Yeah. Didn't love it.

Didn't love it. Okay.

It's something. My notes aren't linear. They don't, you know, all make sense. And then when I'm done with the paper, I like to be able to rip it and trash it and scratch. I don't know. It's something about the physical pen. I don't know.

Okay.

It is what it is.

Do you guys, would you guys like me to turn this into a Dale and Adam therapy session or we want to do a podcast? Like we could do either one of those.

Let's shift gears. So we're well, that we'll stay on the same pack a little bit, but we're talking about simplification. So when you work with—

Oh, you want to go back to the outline?

The agenda. The outline. Yes.

Okay. Okay.

What's the Mike? What's the first thing you look at when a team says, "Mike, we have an execution problem." Where do you start?

Yeah. I. It depends. And the real answer is like I don't know where to start just yet on their side. So from a process perspective, my first thing that I do is I gather data. I gather data, conduct research, basically go in there and ask questions and interview.

So like an audit.

What? Yeah, basically an audit, but an audit on private information, not public information. And the way that I distinguish private versus public is private is the information that's in your head that someone's got to pull out. Public is the information I can go into a system, and sometimes the systems are bad and whatnot, but those systems could be internal versus external, like all of that kind of stuff. Data integrity is a real challenge. It's pretty simple to go in and figure that kind of stuff out. The first thing I want to understand is, hey, what are people thinking, doing, and saying? So thinking, doing, saying, and how are they feeling? And where do the patterns start to disconnect? So it's information-based interviews, gather data, conduct research. Depending on scope, that's typically a minimum of 10 of those interviews. And the reason I want to do a minimum of 10 is if people cherry-pick people inside the organization—and I just happened to talk to the three people who all started around the same time and had the same kind of background and work in the same kind of market and do all of that kind of stuff, or are the high performers, whatever it is—then I'm going to get limited data. So a minimum of 10 interviews, gather data, conduct research. That's my first step.

I love the private versus public. I almost, you know, wonder and we start everything with an audit. But I almost wonder the question of, alright, you know, Mike, like we have these 175 questions we're going to go through, but I want to start and ask it broadly. Let's talk about what's in your head that I'm not going to find going into HubSpot or Salesforce or everything else, and not another—leave it blank and just let them have diarrhea themselves.

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The one that works for me, and I think that's an interesting one because they're going to take a couple of different things from it. They're going to say, "Okay, someone's going to go into the data and someone's going to go look at some stuff and someone's going to see all these things." I the thing I ask, if we're talking about assessing a sales team just as an example, sure. Where the view is look, I don't know that I got the right people on the team or I don't know if they're motivated or if they give a crap or if they don't know how to do their jobs or you know whatever the thing is that they're doing. What I want to know is from their perspective what's their sales process? Just tell me, describe it. And I can throw it up on a whiteboard and then I can ask them, "What did I miss in the process?" And after I have 10 conversations with people, how often do you think all 10 of them draw out the same sales process?

Never.

Never.

How many, like two of them did the same thing, right?

Yeah.

It.

And it gets even better when you ask the question about, okay, well, how do you define that stage?

Like, what's your definition of that stage?

And what ends up happening is you start to—it's a beginner's mind approach. Infinite learning is I think what Barry Diller has talked about called it before. Infinite learning, beginner's mind. It's always day one, like whatever you want to look at, like blank slate. I'm just going to go through my process. I'm going to gather data, conduct research. I'm going to assess that data. I'm then going to identify areas where we want to test. I'm going to put those tests in place. And then I'm going to get more data from the results of those tests. And that's the process.

To go through. And in this instance, what I want to do is I want to go and work all the way across and just kind of understand when I ask that question about what your sales process is. I immediately see: Are they looking at sales process through the lens of forecasting for the business? Are they looking at sales process through the lens of how the customer makes a decision? Are they looking at sales process through the lens of how they do their work? It's not "what's your definition of sales process?" It's just "what is your sales process" or "can you describe it?" And then we just go from there.

Then typically the next set of questions will be built on that. Get that kind of stuff loaded and say, so when you're really excited about the type of customer that you get a chance to work with, what are those things? What typically do you see? What are they saying? Who are they introducing you to? What do those things look like? What does the communication look like inside the organization? If you could change certain things, what would you change?

If I get into those questions inside a 25-minute period—and that's usually what I limit it to—sometimes they're recorded, sometimes not. It just depends on the culture inside the organization and what they're open to. Those are the questions I tend to ask and they're the same ones over and over again. I literally pull the string back. I ask the question and the follow-up question will be built based on what I get back from them because sometimes there's interesting stuff where I need to get some clarity around a word that they used or something else that pops up.

>> We usually have to ask Adam a couple of questions deeper than just the surface to get to his real thought process, like why he cannot use an iPad to write notes.

>> Yeah, I can tell you, when we talked last week—it's amazing that it was that quick ago or may it may have been the week before—the thing is it seems like it was an eternity. It didn't take much to get the clarity around what was going on because you could just see the non-verbal. There was a lot.

>> I don't hide it well.

>> And which is cool because when people do that, this is the thing. This is why it's so important to have video on. You can lean in a little bit more, and you just can't script this stuff out. If you script it out, you lose certain things because now it becomes more about the script and what's on the document or what's on a piece of paper or here's the technology that you should be working through.

>> Guys, like this thing is absolutely insane.

>> What is that?

>> The Remarkable Paper Mover Pro.

>> And oh, it integrates with Slack. I can take my handwriting—again, that peaks in second grade—sync it into our Slack instance and send notes to the other people on the team. I pulled that up on my screen.

>> We might. I like the integration into Slack. That's super cool.

>> It's awesome.

>> Yeah, consider an Adam enter Slack in 2.3 seconds. Any Slack at any time? 2.2 seconds.

>> 2.2.

>> Email too. You yelled at me yesterday for answering an email too fast.

>> Well, you also ended up going down a different path. Anyway, let's get back to the podcast. Actually, one thing I've been using, Mike, is Whisper Flow. So most stuff isn't—

>> Most of my stuff is not written now. Most of it's just talked and it doesn't know how to write.

>> It translates. No, so it just translates into everything. So in Slack, I just talk and I think I'm up to 132 words a minute. So it tells you how fast you're talking, writes everything, kind of segments it, puts it in bullet points. So there's a lot of different levels of it. Anyway—

>> Yep.

>> Yeah, I tried it. I don't like it. All right, let's—

>> He tried it. He doesn't like it.

>> We will be like this: everything tried it, didn't like it.

>> At least you tried it because you can't reflect on what you're going to do. You actually have to go do it.

>> Yeah, of course.

>> The question—hold on, hold on, hold on. The question is: Did he really try it?

>> Enough for flow?

>> Did he try it enough to say, "Yeah, I'm not sure." Like, Adam likes to try things.

>> I'm good. Two weeks. That's fair, that's fair.

>> I'm going to give you something for Adam in the future, right? So Adam, don't pay attention to any of this. You're going to hold this marker in front of Adam and be like, "Sell try to pick up this marker." And what he can't do is he can't actually touch it because if he touches it, he didn't try. He picked it up. So just show me what try is. And before you know it, you start to realize—

>> Yoda was onto something when he said, you know, "Do or do not. There is no try." So did you do it or didn't you do it? Did you use—

>> Ah, I like it. I like it.

>> Interesting.

>> Very interesting.

>> We're getting philosophical, psychological in this episode. It's a therapy session. So—

>> Strategic communication is important, right? In any org—

>> Back to internal communication—

>> Is a performance lever. You've seen good communication, you've seen bad communication. We've all seen bad communication. On this episode, we've seen great communication. Yeah. When Dale interrupts—what does effective communication actually look like? What does that mean to you?

>> Yeah, so let me take a step back and just say: Why is the communication problem something that continues to persist? Like, why does so we agree there's a communication problem and we agree that it's important to solve. Why does it continue to persist? Well, it persists because there are things that are said, there are things that are heard, there are things that are remembered. And very rarely are all three of those the same.

>> Right? Said, heard, remembered.

>> So if we get everybody agreeing on that—and people will come up with little stories around it—be like, okay, so just share with me: I'm sure our company mission has been shared and said more times than anybody cares to remember. Inside an organization, how many times has it been said? Well, what did people hear? Is it remembered? And that's one of those things that's just been echoed over and over again. Said, heard, remembered. A lot of the reason why there's conflict is there's always so many things that are going on. I'm thinking about what my next meeting is or I'm thinking about what I was supposed to do on this to-do list or I'm thinking, "Oh, I hope that I don't get called on," you know, whatever the thing is. My brain is somewhere else. Or I get an alert on my phone and it distracts me. Or I want to keep my 2.2-second record on task with Slack, so I need to make sure that I'm responding quickly. On top of it, I've got that stuff there, so there's stuff that gets in the way.

So: said, heard, remembered. One piece: once we agree that that happens, now we've got to understand in order for something to be remembered, it has to have been heard. So when we share information, ask this question: "What did you hear me say?"

And depending on who the audience is and what—whether or not somebody else is in that room when that happens—there are some people who can get defensive with that: "What did you hear me say?" There's different ways to color and share that message. If someone shares information with you, you can follow up and say, "Just want to confirm this. Here's what I heard you say. Did I get that right?" Because now we've bridged the gap between said and heard, and we're going to be in a better position for remembered.

The way to solve for the remembered piece from an effective communication perspective: build out your call plan. So, who's going to be in the room? Know what their objectives are. Anticipate those objectives. We're going to anticipate the objectives of others. We're going to know what our objectives are. And we're going to be clear about what our desired next steps are. Just four simple things: who, their objectives, our objectives, desired next steps. This is not an agenda. It's a call plan, right? It's a plan. And the plan's going to change based on first contact, first interaction with someone.

>> If I don't go in with a plan, I'm leaving everything up for chance. If I do go in with a plan, I've at least got a view of where I want to go, what I want to do, what I think somebody else wants to do. And ultimately, if I can get to these desired next steps quickly, then I can end the meeting. So from an effective communication standpoint, if I understand said, heard, remembered, I know I verify that the things that were said were heard, I—

# TRANSCRIPT

Come in with my plan and objectives, then my next steps turn into who will do what by when, which helps me get to execution.

That was a lot to go through, but it is important for the heard side of it. You know how many meetings are you in where you're getting distracted doing 85 other things or someone's saying something and you're thinking about something else? So it's very hard to digest what they're saying so you can remember it later, which is almost getting worse now with all these call recorders because we'll just let the call recorder take it. I remember I used to do mind mapping in meetings and that way I would write down what was happening so then I'd really remember it.

So what do you guys think? Was that helpful?

I think it's helpful from a framework perspective. I think people can digest things in frameworks or in small pieces. And I think one of the things that happens in today's, when you're getting to the heard side of it or the understood side of it, if we end up making things too complicated. Said, heard, remembered—like people can digest that or the box, right? Like how do I set myself up for success?

Yeah, makes sense to me.

Adam, what do you think?

He doesn't.

He was on a red eye and it's his birthday.

You have to have a process for anything. And I think in this example, the process makes sense. I think it's different for different people, but yes, it does. And a lot of these things are check the box type things. If I go in with my call plan now, I know what's going to be said. I can validate what was heard. And then my next step should align with that—who will do what by when. So ideally, those things are remembered. And if I follow the framework, my notes, my follow-up notes, let's say it's after a client meeting, I can communicate back: here's what I heard that was exciting, this is what we agreed to as far as next steps, here are the people who own those next steps. And then that fits simply into your CRM from a notes perspective. And it all just kind of fits together. The work is integrated into workflow rather than something new that someone has to keep track of.

Yeah, and I wonder how much of that is going to get dispersed when we start getting into AI and some of that data gets lost, that thinking gets lost. But yeah, I think the frameworks are good, but we need to wrap up a little bit. So let's get into some rapid fire.

Look at Adam. He's about to fall asleep. We got to bring this.

I'm not about to fall asleep. I think it's funny that you're like up, I'm done talking to Mike, I got to go. This was a great conversation, but let's run.

There are things that we have to get to. We're on a clock.

Mike, you are my last meeting of the day. I'm not on Dale. He doesn't work.

Flew to California on a Monday, home on a Wednesday. This is your own fault, bro.

Signed a contract while I was there.

Nice work. You win.

Hardest leadership lesson you've learned.

Hardest leadership lesson I learned: it's not about me.

I like that. Okay, Mike, what's a communication mistake you still see everywhere?

The assumption that communication actually happened. I said it out loud.

Think back to what you just said.

That's actually... I want to double click on that one a little bit because I think expectations screw up everything on the communication side. You're expecting something doesn't end up happening.

Or you're not clear with someone around what your expectations are. Like, hey, if you have an expectation, just share it. And if someone's non-verbal reaction is, "Hey, you're a dick for sharing it that way," then okay, don't share it that same way the next time, right? Use your feedback loops and say, "Maybe we do this a little bit differently next time." Or respond like a human being and say, "Looks like that didn't come across the way I intended." That's typically what I'll ask: "Hey, what did you hear me say?"

I love that. One thing a leader should do daily to stay aligned besides whiteboarding.

My mindset around leadership is this, and I'll provide the color and context on it. First, mindset definition: attitude, belief, clarity of definition. That's how I look at mindset. That's my definition of mindset—attitude, belief, clarity, definition. ABCD. My mindset when it comes to leadership: leaders build leaders. Leadership starts with self, and leadership is how we move forward.

The one thing that we do: build leaders. If we're not out there building leaders, then I don't know what you're doing. I don't know how you even describe yourself as a leader. Leaders build leaders. So first thing: build other leaders and have that perspective that leadership starts with self. Look, if you're looking for leadership, start with a mirror. Look at that reflection. And ultimately, the function of leadership is how we move forward. So if we're not moving forward toward our objectives, something's wrong. Let's go figure it out. A to B—don't worry about getting to Z. Let's get from A to B first. How's that for one thing?

I love it.

Yeah, not one thing. Mike, if you weren't doing this kind of work, what would you be doing instead?

I think I'd be an engineer. I really do.

Mechanical or software? Like what kind of engineer?

Mechanical engineer. Like, just build things. I like building things. And you know, lately I'm kind of leaning into this building of people piece from a leadership standpoint. I think in another life, another world, I'd have been an engineer. When I'm around that kind of environment, I don't feel like I'm out of place. There are a lot of other places where I'll feel like I'm out of place, but that would be the direction I would have gone.

Final one. Dale, ask your last one.

Dream vacation destination.

So before we hit the mics live or started recording, we were talking about settling down on vacation, being able to detach. And I am one of those people who had a really hard time detaching during vacation. I still do because I do work that I love and that I appreciate and is meaningful. So what we did is we went on a cruise for the first time. I was too cheap to pay for Wi-Fi. I was just not going to pay extra money for it, and this was before I even worried about whether or not it was secure. I didn't pay for the Wi-Fi, so I wasn't connected to anything. I literally, as the boat is leaving Port Canaveral, had emails going back and forth because it was at that point in time—emails and text messages, not Slack.

We are doing a dream vacation later this year. We are on a repositioning cruise from Barcelona, Spain to Florida, and that is going to be absolutely awesome because at that point in time, it'll be the first big vacation like that where we've got four adults in the family. We're in that season of life. So that dream vacation is coming up, and it's a cruise from Barcelona to either Port Canaveral or Miami.

Love that.

Barcelona is great. One of my favorite places—Barcelona, Madrid. I will give you the best pastry shop you've ever been to in your life in Barcelona.

Awesome.

Best. Like, unbelievable.

Mike Simmons, what I heard you say is, "I'm going to get the best place in Barcelona. Let's go."

That's all you need.

Mike Simmons, thanks for joining the show, man. Where can people learn more?

You can find your catalyst at findmycatalyst.com.

I like that. You can find your catalyst at findmycatalyst.com. I bet that was planned. That's awesome.

Thanks, Mike.

Mike, thanks for joining the show, man.

Thank you, guys.