Revenue Reimagined #8: Mastering Product-Market Fit: Insights from Udi Ledergor

[Music]

What's up everyone, welcome back to Revenue Reimagined. I'm super excited to have Udi Ledergor, the former CMO and now Chief Evangelist at Gong—master of all things marketing and, transparently, one of the very first folks that I followed on LinkedIn, someone that I've looked up to for a long time. That I'm stoked to talk to today on the show with us. Udi, welcome!

Big glad to be here, Adam. Very excited to be speaking today.

Udi, thanks for joining us. We really appreciate it. So we are a podcast called Revenue Reimagined, and so we'll start with a little controversy. You're mostly in the marketing role, and as we'll talk about with the Evangelist role, an extension of marketing. If you had to leave that role, what other role within the GTM revenue function would you go into?

You know, after being on broader go-to-market leadership roles like the CRO or CEO or President type role at the right company—after building five marketing teams, some of them pretty successful like the one I led until recently at Gong—I think I'm kind of done building marketing teams. But I would be interested in seeing broader strategic challenges related to go-to-market.

Sierra, interesting. Awesome. Listen, I love it. As a former CRO, I think that when you look at the CRO role and how it ties in, most CROs, as you know, typically have that sales background, right? They come from sales. I think it's a unique perspective when you have someone with that marketing background. And that's actually, I think, a great place to start. Like, when we look at kind of revenue and who's leading the revenue function, it's broken, right? Like, there's not a lot of companies that are doing it right. Some companies have a great brand but they have horrible sales. Some companies have a great sales team but they can't get that brand right. You have been part of building an empire. What have you guys done differently, and how do you think other companies can learn from that?

I think one of the secrets of Gong's success—and not many people know this—but our CEO Amit Bendo was a career marketer for most of his career before he started Gong. And I've had the privilege of working with him on and off at three different companies over the last twenty-five years. So if you do the math, we were clearly teenagers when we started. And he had the foresight to bring me on board as employee number thirteen at Gong, a full year before we hired our first VP of sales. And the reason he did that was he wanted to start creating pipeline and brand awareness and everything that marketing can create for a company well before he built a sales team and asked them to go sell.

And I think most companies do that backwards. They first bring sales, then they see sales getting stuck, which inevitably happens because they don't have enough pipeline and nobody's heard about them and cold calling sucks for both sides. And then they're like, "Oh, okay, shoot, we probably do need marketing. Let's quickly go build something." And then marketing is expected to do maybe too much in too little time with too few resources, and then they inevitably fail, and then they get into this vicious cycle, which we were able to overcome at Gong by doing it the right way.

Very interesting. So, and I bet you would say the optimal way is actually raising them both up together, right? The tides raise all boats. And so one of the things I've worked in several startup organizations is the challenge becomes exactly what you're saying. Like, we're running sales. I think of marketing as like the thirty-thousand-foot view, giving air cover, awareness—especially in the startup world where the sales people are like hand-to-hand combat. They're kind of getting in the mix. But then what ends up happening, if you don't bring them up together with the same philosophical space of the leaders in both of those, the information doesn't flow back through. Like, "Hey, these leads may not be the best for us," or "Hey, this is really good. Keep bringing me more of these." How do you think what's the best way for that to work better together? Like, how can we work better together and then extend that into customer success? Now, because we're seeing expansion is a big key.

Absolutely. So there's at least three issues that you raise to unpack there. Let's try and tackle them one by one. One of them is the timing of the hiring and the building of the different functions. The other is sales and marketing alignment, and the third is how customer success fits in.

So I'll start with the first one, which is when to bring them in. Because it kind of touches on what we talked about earlier, it's the fact of life that if you want pipeline created, you need to have started to create it before today. If you want pipeline for today, if you want to close the deal today, you need to have created that pipeline before today. And if marketing is going to do what marketing is great at—which is helping source that pipeline—you need to start with that earlier. You can bring in a salesperson or sales team and say, "Okay, you've got to start closing deals this month," but if you don't have anyone creating pipeline before they showed up and before they inherited the account, so I might be a little biased, but I've seen this work really well at Gong, where we bring marketing in, start creating pipeline, and give some time for that to happen. Create brand awareness, create a content marketing engine, and just create lots of raving fans of our content and brand even before we ask a salesperson to start closing deals.

Love it. So that would be my preference if I have to call the shots on the order and sequence of bringing those functions in. That's number one. I think the worst thing you can do is what I talked about earlier—which is bring in sales with no marketing support, expect magic of them, and when that doesn't work, scramble to put some marketing together that is very short-term focused. Because you're going to have to rebuild that a couple of times before you get it right. So that would be the last thing I would do.

Let's move on to sales and marketing alignment. And I do think that's another great secret of great companies' success, like Gong. And I've written articles, given some presentations about this where I proposed a question to marketing leaders—and you could ask the same of sales leaders—but I came at it from the angle of marketing leaders: Do you know how your CRO takes their coffee? If you don't know exactly how your CRO takes their coffee, you're not doing sales and marketing alignment right. And this was probably more true during the pre-COVID, in-office era when I came up with that sort of litmus test for sales and marketing alignment. But I'm sure you could easily find a 2023 version of that.

Back before COVID, I used to go out once a week with my CRO for a walk and talk. And we used to get coffee, and we used to talk about what's challenging on our teams and what's working, what's not working, and how we could be better aligned and what our people could be doing better together. And then we used to show up to the weekly revenue leadership meeting or executive meetings as one front. We agree on the good news, we agree on the challenges we've got, we've got an action plan for how to solve for it, and we go ahead and do what's needed to do. And that allowed us to focus on actually solutioning and driving the business forward rather than finger-pointing and questioning each other. And just by showing our people that we are united and we trust each other and we're working together as one team—we're all in this one boat together—it allowed the business to move so much faster.

And I've seen in other companies where sales and marketing hardly ever speak to each other, let alone go out for coffee once a week. And then there's the proverbial wall between sales and marketing where sales complain their marketing is just throwing the business cards they collected at some random fishbowl at a trade show, expecting sales to sell to them, while marketing is busy complaining about how sales doesn't know what to do with all this gold and they won't follow up and who hired these clowns. So we have very little of that at Gong because we're able to hire the right people, make sure they work together starting at the top. And then our benches, they are completely embedded in one another—both in how they sit in the office and which meetings they show up to. And the marketing leadership members, they actually sit in the weekly sales leadership meetings. Our ABM program managers are serving the regional heads of sales and they sit at their meetings. And our head of demand sits in the SDR meeting because they work so closely together, and they all see themselves as part of the same team.

And in case you're wondering by now, how does the Gong CRO take his coffee? It was a trick question because he only drinks tea. So that is the truth. I know that because members of coffee meetings with Ryan. So I know he takes tea. He's recently started venturing back to decaf, but that's a different story.

That's what sales and marketing alignment is. And then the third and final topic you brought up was how customer success fits in. I think, especially now where many companies are seeing a lot of churn and retention is no longer guaranteed, we're all reminded of the old truth, which is keeping a customer is far cheaper than

Going out there and getting a new one. Customer success absolutely has to be seen as part of the revenue team. I have specific thoughts on org structures and stuff like that, but it might get a little too tactical. But I do think customer success needs to understand from the leadership down early on they are not a glorified technical support or cheerleading team. They actually need to make sure that the customer stays happy enough to retain them as a customer and to expand them in any way that the company wants to, whether it's upsell or cross-sell or selling to other teams or licenses or additional products, whatever is possible.

Everything that applies to sales marketing alignment also has to apply to customer success and marketing alignment. And needless to say, sales and customer success are essentially one in the same team.

Wow, like mic drop. There's so much that I could unpack there. I have interviewed with Ryan in the past. If I would have known he didn't drink coffee, that would have been helpful. If you would have just given that away, little fun fact. You hit on something that I think is near and dear to certainly my heart, but I think both of our hearts: you gotta build the marketing engine first. You have to build the pipeline first. You can't tell marketing today to create pipeline for a deal to close tomorrow. Yet so many founders, and not even founders, so many companies broadly, now when there's a problem, it's "oh, just hire more sales reps. They'll just close more deals," right? But we don't have the pipeline to fix that. We don't have the demand. We don't certainly don't have the content.

When you look at creating pipeline, a lot of people think it's "oh, you know, just hire BDRs" or "marketing just needs to go out there and throw up some cool articles." It's deeper than that. How did you guys kind of look at generating pipeline early in some of the untraditional ways that have made you so successful?

Yeah, so before I directly answer the question, I'll add a couple of asterisks. You know, in my attempt to create some tweet-worthy moments in the previous answer, I oversimplify things as we like to do. And I think simplifying to an extent is a really good thing because it helps people understand complicated concepts. I think in Gong's example, bringing in marketing ahead of sales worked really, really well. It's not always going to work that well. And here's an example: one of the reasons this works well at Gong is because we had ridiculously early product-market fit.

When I came in, I did not carry the burden of finding product-market fit or trying to tell a story to a market that we did not understand or that we weren't sure that we have a solution that they really need. We were not a solution chasing a problem. When Amit called me—Amit's our CEO and co-founder—he said, "Would you remember that crazy idea I told you about six months ago? We actually built it. We rolled out the product to 12 beta customers, and three months later we told them we're shutting off the beta and they should either shut the system off or become a paying customer. And 11 out of the 12 beta customers became paying customers. That's why we think we have early product-market fit. Could you come in and start marketing this thing?" And I said yes, I'd love to. And that is a rare privilege that most marketers are not privy to.

So I would say that early attempts at sales should really verify that you have that initial product-market fit before you can expect a standard marketer. And I don't think I'm a brilliant marketer. I think I'm a good marketer, and I come in and I know how to scale something when we understand what value we're providing to what buyer. I think why many, many marketers are set up for failure is that they are brought in before minimal product-market fit, and the CEO or co-founders expect magic from them and say, "Go bring me a thousand leads." And then of course they fail to bring the thousand leads because the company hasn't figured out what they're selling, what value it provides, who is the buyer. And even those poor innocent souls that do come in as leads, they cannot be sold to because the company hasn't reached product-market fit. And then marketing gets the blame because they're not bringing in supposedly qualified buyers or they're not converting to close deals.

So you really have to notice this, whether you're a founder or a sales leader or a marketing leader: don't set yourself up for failure by coming in unless you know how to solve for product-market fit. And some marketers come with a strong product background. I myself was a product manager for five years before I shifted full-time into marketing. But I still would not take on myself right now in a marketing capacity role the ungrateful task of reaching product-market fit if that's not what you're signing up for. Make sure you understand that they have the minimal product-market fit that you need to be able to tell a story that can generate meaningful pipeline and convert it to sales.

So that's a really important asterisk that I need to add. But you're so right. And I don't mean to interrupt you, but having been a sales leader that has gone into orgs that haven't had product-market fit, it is a gargantuan task. If that is not your skill set and you're not prepared for it, holy crap, like you have no idea what you're stepping into.

And it's interesting—everyone defines product-market fit a little bit differently, right? I mean, the way Amit defined it was: okay, we have 11 or 12 beta customers. We turn it off. If they come back to us, then we have product-market fit.

Yeah, so that's kind of a lagging indicator that we use. The leading indicators that we use were NPS surveys for every user in our system. We started pinging them with an NPS survey from day one. And now we use something else that's—I don't know the official name of the question, but it's a single question. I think Superhuman kind of made it famous when they used it to define their product-market fit, which is asking their users: "How disappointed would you be if we took this feature or product away?"

If they say "not at all disappointed" or "not disappointed," then you know we have a problem. If you have at least 40 percent of users saying "I'd be disappointed" or "very disappointed," you know that you're on to something. And we've been using that in the last couple of years for some of the new products and features that we've been rolling out, and it's very telling.

Because when we see that we have overwhelming disappointed responses, which is a good thing in this context—if people are going to be very disappointed if we take this product or feature away, we know that this has the potential to sell as a separate SKU. We know we should continue to focus on this. We know there's a market for it.

If people are kind of saying, "maybe only 20 percent are saying that they would feel disappointed if we took this away," maybe we don't bet the farm on this product. We either go and ditch this project and focus on something else, or we go find out what it would take to make this a success—that the majority of people, at least 40 percent, would say that they would be disappointed if we took it away.

Wow, there's so many places I could go. Everyone likes to over-complicate from what I've seen: NPS, right? Like, I've got an NPS survey, and I've got like 10, 12, 14 questions that no customer is going to answer. And how in the hell do you discern all of that data and distill it down? I think that one question is important.

What do you do if arguably it's a 50-50 split? 50 want to keep it, 50 say "I don't care." Where do you go?

You go and do qualitative reviews and interviews to understand what they're seeing that they like, what they're seeing that they don't like. And maybe the problem that you set out to solve is not painful enough, or the people who are experiencing it are not in a buying position. Although that's probably not what you'll find out in NPS because you're not asking them whether you're too expensive or whether they would pay. You're just asking them if they're disappointed if you take this away.

But maybe the problem was not painful enough, so your solution cannot become a must-have. If the problem is not painful enough, or maybe our solution is too partial or it's too clunky or it's just not the right solution, so go talk to people and ask them: "What could I do to make your experience better? What could I do to make this happen?"

You know, when we run our NPS surveys to this day—for those unfamiliar with NPS surveys, basically you're asking someone "How likely you are to recommend Gong to a friend?" and we ask them for an answer between zero and ten. If I remember correctly, if they answer nine or a ten, we say thank you so much and we might ask them to go write a review on G2 or someone else or somewhere else. But any answer that we get that's an eight or below, two things happen. One, we ask them a second question. We stopped asking the nines or tens because by now we don't learn a lot from those who are raving fans. We know they love the product, and we have a pretty good idea why they love it. But if they answered an eight or below, we consider eights...

# Transcript

Nine and below are detractors, not promoters. We asked them, "What could we be doing to make your experience better?" And that's where we get a lot of really meaningful comments. And every one of those people can expect to get a call or an email from their customer success manager looking for ways to help them.

I still get a weekly report. For the last seven years, I've been getting the weekly report of our NPS surveys, and you can easily see the theme. So many years ago, the theme was the transcription was not good enough, so we need that better. And then there was some missing integration, so we built those integrations. And now it's just random problems that we see showing up. Like, someone might not find something easily enough in our menu. So when we see that coming from 20 customers, you know you've got to go fix that.

So you've just got to seek out that feedback and not just assume that no one uses it or assume that no news is good news because that is absolutely not the case with product. If you're not hearing anything back from your customers, it's not because they're satisfied. It's because they're not using it. And once we start asking, you will find out what's wrong and what they want you to improve.

That's so true. We talked a lot about successes. I'm curious about a failure that you've had that gave you learnings and generated big amounts of revenue on the back side of it.

You know, we've had successes and failures. I usually find that some of the failures I have are better learning experiences than the successes because it makes you really think, "How can I tweak that? How can I make it better?"

What's one of those times that you've had where it didn't work out so well, but in the long run it did well?

I won't dodge the question. I will say that we have not had what anyone would consider a dramatic or colossal failure. We never launched a product that didn't succeed or did something to completely cause us to mess up. And some of it has been luck. A lot of it has been having the right people in the decision-making seats who usually make good decisions, and that's allowed us to move faster than our competitors and just become the successful company that we are today.

So overall, if you have the right people in the right seats, you're probably going to make fewer mistakes than companies who don't. That's a good recommendation, but get the best people in those seats that you can.

We have seen tactical things happen. When do you release something? There's an old saying that if you wait until you're not embarrassed by the product you're releasing, then you release it too late. So we subscribe to some version of that. But of course, as a growing company with now 4,000 customers—many of them large enterprises—we can't afford to break things and release things prematurely like we could five years ago. So obviously we're going to wait a little bit longer.

But we are not in a vacuum. We're in a competitive market where customers have other choices, and we need to provide them value as quickly as possible. So sometimes we'll release things and it might have been a little prematurely, and then we'll do a post-mortem analysis and we'll see, "What other criteria could we have introduced? What more testing could we have done?" We're not looking for perfection. We're looking to meet that minimum viable product that is worthy of general availability.

That's something that we've seen happen. In the marketing world, we've definitely done a lot of experiments. Our approach not only tolerates but encourages and requires a lot of experimentation. And that means trial and error, and that means lots of errors. When we put out content pieces or events or anything that we do or advertising, a lot of those are going to be duds. They don't get the number of downloads that we expect. They don't drive the amount of pipeline that we expected.

And we try to learn: okay, is this a topic that's not as interesting as we thought? Maybe it was interesting three months ago, but by the time we got it out there, people have moved on to something else. What can we learn from this?

We've got many tactical examples for that, and the trick is really to come with open eyes, encourage the team to give an honest review of what worked, what didn't work, why we think it didn't work, and what are we going to do or what did we learn about it for next time. Then just encourage them to go on with the next experiment.

Other teams might have a culture that doesn't encourage experimentation and failure. And then when everyone is so concerned about their jobs and success and they feel that everything they do has to be a winning success, what actually happens is that they slow down and take very few risks. And now they want to work everything ad nauseam to perfection, which means instead of putting out a new piece every week, you're putting out a piece every three months or six months. It'll probably perform well, but if you could put out a piece every week and two out of three failed, you'd still be driving more revenue and more success than waiting three months to put out the next piece.

You guys swing for the fences with some of your ads.

Yeah, I mean, we try to experiment and try to put out things that look like they don't belong because those typically grab more attention. And if they're interesting and relevant, they'll also keep that attention and drive conversions. So absolutely, we consistently find that if you look at what everyone's doing on a network and then you kind of do the opposite, those are usually going to grab attention a lot more.

Like, if you remember a few years ago when everything on LinkedIn looked very polished and professional and done in studios, we started posting videos that you could take on your phone, and they look like they belong on TikTok or Facebook or somewhere else. But when people saw them on LinkedIn, they're like, "Oh, this is refreshing. This looks authentic. Someone just did this because they've got an interesting message, and they didn't need to cover it up with a polished video production, which is just going to be another obvious marketing video."

So try to stand out rather than blend in. That usually works better.

That ties into the last few minutes the role of evangelism in marketing, right? Standing out. And I think there are a few companies that are starting to take this on and they say, "Oh, we have evangelists." And I think having an evangelist is very different than evangelism. I'd love to know your takes on what real evangelism is and how it partners with marketing to kind of shake things up.

Evangelism—you can find many definitions out there if you Google it—but my view is that if you can get people truly excited about what the company stands for, not just the latest version 3.0.5, but what the company actually stands for, what teams they're helping do something better, or what problem they're making go away, if you can get people genuinely excited about that, you have a wave of evangelism.

It reminds me of a great definition I read years ago when we were creating the revenue intelligence category and we were researching what it takes to build a great category and movement. One of my favorite definitions of movement was: "It's a movement if it keeps moving once you let go. If you need to keep pushing it, that's not movement."

And I think that's very similar to how I look at evangelism. Evangelism is when we are able to create truly raving fans to talk about Gong, whether or not I'm incentivizing them directly, whether or not they're even using the product. I can't tell you how many times I've heard from people, "Oh, I'm a huge Gong fan," even before they ever started using the product, because they've attended our events, they've read our content, they've gotten a ton of value. They get the vibe and the energy that we put out there every day, and they're like, "I want to be part of that. I can get behind that."

That is evangelism. That is a movement. And that's what we're trying to do, and that's what I've been doing almost for seven years as the Chief Marketing Officer at Gong and more recently as a full-time Chief Evangelist. We've got an awesome new CMO now who's taking the marketing team and efforts to the next stage where they need to go, and I get to focus full-time on this beautiful patch of evangelism—working with industry influencers, with our internal gangsters, with our customers, with partners like you, and spreading the good gospel out there.

As with most guests on our podcast, Udi has been very grateful and gracious to provide one of our listeners with a session with you, a marketing session, to have some time with you to talk about strategy. This would be really great for any of the founders out there or some heads of sales that want to get a marketing perspective on how things are running. So I'm putting my name in the drawing to get it. Just subscribe to the newsletter. Take a look. We pick people at random, but we really appreciate Udi giving us some of that stuff.

And we will start wrapping this up with some rapid-fire questions. We've got a couple of rapid-fire questions for you.

All right, Udi. What song would best describe your revenue strategy?

"Change the World" by Eric Clapton.

Nice. I love it.

# Transcript

If you had a crystal ball, what one revenue trend or strategy would you predict would take center stage in the next 12 to 18 months?

Oh, that's easy. AI, of course. Specifically, generative AI. It's way past the buzzword. It's actually real now, and it's in products, and many of our customers are using it as part of Gong's latest product offering. That's absolutely going to change the way sales, marketing, CS, everyone does their work. All of us, our jobs are going to look completely different in three years from now thanks to generative AI.

Cool. I'm going to agree with you. I'm going to skip the question that we normally ask about whether you should focus on customer retention or customer acquisition because I think we addressed that earlier. But what is one lesser-known tip or tactic, not wildly known out there, but something lesser-known that would make a huge difference? A surprising difference in someone's revenue outcomes?

Learning how to mobilize your entire employee base as free marketing. At only 12 engineers with a network of their closest relatives on LinkedIn, we're still doing it now, and we have 1,200 employees with hundreds of thousands of people in their networks. It is so effective. I could never afford the publicity that I get for mobilizing 1,200 Gongsters in our recent launch of Gong and Engage, our new AI-driven approach to sales engagement. We had almost a thousand Gongsters spread the news and share the excitement, and either write something personal or share something that marketing prepared for them. And I could never afford that sort of publicity. I'm still in wonder and awe why more companies don't do this and drive their entire employee base to share a big moment of news for the company. Why would you not do that?

You all pioneered it. I see it all the time. I've known Sarah forever. I've known a few other Gongsters forever, and it's not just one person who posts. It's hundreds, if not a thousand people that are posting. So that's pretty cool.

Yeah, people don't scale it very well. I've seen people try to start it up, but I think it's that passion, that burning belief that they have in the product as much as the founders and everybody else in the organization. That's a very interesting dynamic. To get that spark is a huge kudos to all the leadership here for sure.

Give a 30-second tip?

Yeah, you know, I often get asked, "Udi, do you use some secret technology and get people involved and take over their LinkedIn profiles?" I'm like, no, dude. This is way more simple. All we do is we ask nicely, we make it easy, and I show them what's in it for them. So in Gong's case, you mostly see our sales people sharing the news. Why do they do that? Because I tell them, here's how the LinkedIn algorithm works. When we publish a piece of content and LinkedIn sees that 500 of you will like, share, and comment on it within the first couple of hours, that tells the LinkedIn algorithm that this is a really great piece of news for sales people like you, and then they surface that and make it visible to your leads who are sales leaders on LinkedIn. And then we in marketing bring those leads back to you as qualified pipeline.

Right? So 30 seconds: like, share, and comment on this piece of content. We will bring you more pipeline. That's it.

Yeah, it is as that simple and complex for people. I so appreciate that.

Okay, last one. So earlier in the show, you said that if you weren't in your role, you'd be a CRO. So if you weren't the Chief of... you'd be the CRO. Is tomorrow morning, first thing, what's the first thing you're doing tomorrow morning?

Making sure that I have the right product that I can go to market with. Because as a go-to-market leader, I cannot fix or create product-market fit. That's really the most critical thing. I mean, you can't get started with go-to-market in a meaningful way until you have that product-market fit. And I don't want this to sound like I'm complaining. It's the opposite. I'm giving a huge credit to Gong's product team because ridiculously early product-market fit allowed our go-to-market motion to be successful almost from day one.

Yeah. So once we have that, figuring out who is our easiest audience to go to. It doesn't have to be the biggest one. It doesn't have to be the one with the most potential. But who's the audience that stands to get the most value from us from day one? And go full force ahead to get to that small pond and knock down that bowling pin first, and then move to the next one next to it, and then to the next one next to it. So focusing on a small audience where we can quickly become that big fish in the small pond. And if all these analogies are sounding familiar, many of them are from Geoffrey Moore's Crossing the Chasm. Yeah. And once you establish yourself as a big fish in one small pond, can move on to the next one, next one, until you can finally boil the ocean. But I wouldn't start from there.

And the one thing you said I just want to say that I don't think enough revenue go-to-market leaders think about is injecting product into the revenue cycle. Too many people think of it as a side piece instead of like, that is the main piece that people are using the product and getting that feedback in, and getting that feedback loop is super important for product-market fit. So I appreciate that a lot.

I mean, I just read a post from someone, a good leader on LinkedIn saying that one of the leaders in SaaS, Jason Lemkin, wrote today. He's seen many sales leaders and sales people fail because they didn't have a deep enough understanding of the product they were selling. And you could get away with that for a short while, a couple of years ago, when products were practically selling themselves. But that's no longer the case. We're back to a sort of normal status quo now. And a good go-to-market team will deeply understand their buyers and the problems that they have and what they need to make their jobs better. And equally, understand the product that they're offering and how that directly maps to those needs and challenges that their marketers are having. And so once you truly understand the problem that you're solving and how your product solves that problem, then you can build a really successful go-to-market strategy.

I absolutely love it. You have dropped so much knowledge. I do have one more question. How do you take your coffee?

You go espresso, several times a day, no sugar, no cream, nothing in it. Black.

Note to self. I am not the same. I need more sugar than you can think about. Udi, thank you so much. Where can people find you? What's the best way to engage with you? It's your time to pitch whatever you'd like.

Yeah, so if you've been living in a cave and have not yet experienced the magic that is Gong, please go to gong.io. That's gong.io. And we'd be so happy to show you around, no strings attached. See what we could do for your team. If it's a good fit now, if it's a good fit later, we'd love to help your sales team consolidate on one AI purpose-built platform for sales that all the winning revenue teams are using these days. So that's gong.io.

I am thankfully the only Udi Letterboard on LinkedIn, so feel free to look me up there. I have no competition for the name. So Udi Letterboard on LinkedIn would love to connect with all our listeners here. And looking forward to giving one lucky GTM leader a free marketing strategy or go-to-market strategy session on how to think about marketing for your product, for your company, what to look for in your next marketing hire, however I can be helpful.

Thanks so much for having me today, Dale and Adam. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much, Udi. That was awesome.