Outbound that actually works in 2025 — Eric Iannello's top-of-funnel playbook

And I think that's where I'm going. I'm going to hit them where it hurts. That's why agencies fail early founders so often. These people that are just promising meetings. And again, I have friends that are in agencies and I mean no disqualification to them whatsoever, but these false promises, just saying hey I'll book you 20 meetings in the first month. Like you said, right? A kid, my three-year-old man, he's three, and he can book you meetings immediately.

Welcome back to another episode of the Revenue Reimagine podcast. This one is a little bit special because while we have a guest, it is an RR crew here today. We have Eric Ianello, who is our head of outbound, and we are going to talk about all things outbound.

Now, the interesting thing here is Eric just isn't the head of outbound for RR. I have worked with Eric before. I brought Eric into RR. He's someone that I worked with previously who I have stayed in touch with, who I have an immense amount of respect for, who gets the outbound game better than most. And one of the things that we hear every founder say to us all day, every day, is I need pipeline. But pipeline doesn't just magically appear.

Eric, thanks for joining us, man.

No, it doesn't. Amazing, right? You can't just send an email and book a meeting. I wish that's like applying Rogaine and just magically sprouting hair, right? Or am I?

No, I feel like I should be in the middle of you two. I feel like I should be a bit out of place here. But okay, good.

So Eric, welcome to the show. Welcome to the group. Super excited to have you in the team. So talk to us a little bit about why outbound, why you're so passionate about it, and like that whole origin story. We talk about origin stories a lot, but I'm curious from an outbound perspective why you double down on the outbound motion.

Yeah, I got a sick sense of humor. We'll put it that way.

No, I think what originates from is that I wasn't born in B2B, right? Like I kind of moved over here as many did through the COVID expenditure when my previous life was shut down. That was working B2C, right? And I was really much that brick and mortar. I worked on commission only. And so a lot of it was riding on me, right? I was the business card. I was the representation to it. And I had to generate all my business because if I didn't, I wouldn't be paid.

So through all my previous experience—be it hospitality, be it physical therapy and personal training, and just working on various odd jobs—I was able to adapt not only who I am as a person, who I am as a seller, but then also my tonality and how I'm able to articulate myself and understand the person on the other side, be it phone, email, in-person, whatever that may be. In a general sense, I think that's what gives me the success and the ability to teach others like how to identify their strengths and their capabilities and how to generate and repeat the success.

So yeah, longwinded answer, but I think it's deeper than just who I am and what I do, I guess. I think the sick part is definitely true, but okay, we can move on. Fact, yeah, fact.

So we've said over and over again outbound is broken, right? I don't think anyone disputes that. But we still have founders, even what I won't say unskilled, but earlier in their career revenue leaders who believe that it's possible to spin up a couple domains—if they even do that—build a sequence that basically says, you know, because you are Dale, the chief whatever at RR, you must struggle from this problem, and I could solve it with this solution. And they think that that's going to get a response and we could shift to phone conversations. Even with all the noise out there—and there is a lot of noise—Eric, like why do people think this still works? Why do people still think you could just spray and prey with zero personalization and grow a business?

I think it's threefold, right? The market's changed dramatically. You guys can attest to this better than I can. Like if the selling market, or even the buying market for that matter, isn't the same as it was eighteen to twenty-four months ago, the stuff ain't easy. I don't know if I can cuss. Forgive me. But have you met me? I didn't know if it's acceptable on the pod, but anyways, point being, it's not easy, right? You can't just point and click and then deliver a message and return on value. The metrics have to change on the way that we measure because that's the well—it's a different market in its entirety. We can't look at meetings booked translating to revenue generated. They're not direct. They're not linear by any meeting.

What we need to be looking at, and I think this is where a lot of founders go a little bit naive to your point Adam, is that they think that a meeting is a tangible metric, but it's not. What a meeting just says is that you've captivated their attention. Cool, what now?

And this is where the outbound process needs to be redefined or reimagined.

Got it.

Yeah. So what needs to come in is this applicable value of conversions, right? We need to make sure that what we're doing, who we're targeting, what we're targeting, how we're articulating that message, the pain point that in which case we're highlighting, and then most importantly, how can we get it to money, right? How can we attach a revenue sticker to that?

So where many founders lose that translation between the two is the conversion metrics, the conversion tangibility. That in itself needs to be the bread and butter and baseline to every foundational outbound motion. It's entirely so before you click, point, trigger, call, say hi at an event—what converts? I could give a damn if it books me a meeting. It's just a waste of time if it's not converting. Or that meeting that you convert into could be a waste of time for the sales reps that you're converting it over to. So there's a lot of reasons why it's not just the meeting booked, but it's actually meeting held, conversion rates. Then do you really map to the ICP?

So hyper-targeted generated?

Yeah. I say it all the time. I could forget my... I mean, my thirteen-year-old—Dale, your sixteen-year-old—your what, nineteen? You're nineteen-year-old—like we could train anyone to book a meeting, right? Is the meeting with the right person? I promise you. And we've all seen this leading revenue teams. If the goal is to book a meeting and that's what the BDR is getting paid on, I promise you'll have a ton of meetings booked. But to Dale's point, are they ICP? Are they with the right person? And are they going to convert to pipeline?

But doing that and taking that approach of targeting takes longer, right? It takes longer to personalize. It takes longer to target the right ICP.

Eric, working with founders, how do you have the conversation of this is going to take time and time isn't seven days?

Yeah, I before working with founders, man, I had a full head of hair. Let's put it that way. And I mean that in the utmost respect, right? Adam, you can kind of attest to this. But needless to say, what it comes down to is the visionary practice, right? We can give him the tangibles all day long, but if I show him the faults and the cracks basically in the process, showing him pipeline fallout, the commonalities of it, why we don't translate or convert to this specific ICP, why we need an ICP matrix so we can understand who to multi-thread to, who do we convey the message with, who to build around it with buying parties—if we map that out, right, and build essentially an entirety of that foundational process, it usually becomes a little bit more crystal clear, right? Color between the lines is how I kind of typically convey the message. Understanding the pathways, right? And having very finite detail, really granular process, because this market—it's not a buying market. We need to have a rock solid process both within pipeline progression but in pipeline generation, both within reduction of churn, both within customer acquisition cost, both within speed to lead. We need that to be the core component of it. And before we even press send, right, it's just like a bunch of drunk frat guys throwing darts, right? Like what the hell are we doing at the end of the day?

Did yeah. Fat frat. I said a bunch of drunk frat guys. All right, all right, all right.

So let me double click on this a little bit. I wrote a LinkedIn post last week about awareness, and I think one of the biggest challenges that most founder companies or startups have is they build out an outbound engine with limited to no marketing. And so I've always had this hypothesis that yeah, sales can build awareness and generate that awareness piece, but it's probably going to take twelve to eighteen months with doing a lot of emails, doing a lot of calling, doing a lot of LinkedIn messaging, whereas in a marketing world, even though it'll still take time, probably more three to six month timeframes, depending on what market you're in and where you're at.

Talk to the audience a little bit about how marketing can actually help the outbound efforts that someone like you are executing on to make it more effective and efficient in the overall scheme of things.

Yeah, I think I'm going to hit with a controversial point, especially with three sales people on the call, right?

I think the first hire needs to be marketing. And that's simply just because brand awareness, brand generation, brand buzz—just make him a freaking blip on the map. I think that seems to be the pivotal point. In which case, the founder can obviously lead it, but that needs to be the first trigger. Thus being because sales process and acquisition process all that has just dramatically increased over the last 8 to 24 months, right? We're talking about two different markets.

To your point, right, like the two actually—let's start. Two functions of an outbound generation is either capture demand or generate demand, depending on which step they're on. If they don't have brand demand, guess what step you're on? You already have brand demand, guess what move you had? So with that in mind, right, to capture the demand usually takes an ROI close about 6 to 9 months, right? And that's simply because people don't want to be sold to. People don't want to buy. So you kind of have to figure out the ins and outs and all the fun tricks of the trade, right? The real fun caveat. But on the flip side of that, right, the 12 to 18 months in, just generating the demand, generating the brand awareness, generating the buzz—that in itself needs to be priority one. And without one, there isn't the other. So again, it's exhausting, exhausting protocols, but again, not exploding your TAM or your total sellable market, whatever you want to classify it as. So it's a process, right? And it's a balance.

I think I just bounced around that answer too much, but yeah, I still don't—so let's say, because a lot of founders will go with the sales motion first, which I actually think it's the right motion followed closely by the marketing motion, just because you got to get some revenue in the door. And then the challenge a little bit with the marketing side is it's a fairly decent expense if you're not doing guerrilla marketing. So if you're not getting people on podcasts, if you don't have like a face of a company—like, there's some other things that you got to figure out on the marketing side. So I think you can guerrilla push your way into sales. You could probably get the first 10 customers through just brute force. That needs probably some management to get through the process. But then quickly bring in the marketing side so you can drive the awareness, whether it's podcasts, dare I say webinars, content, you know, all of those types of pieces. So that's kind of more where my head was at, because someone like you going in and like trying to just cold call people or like send emails and have conversations—if they don't know who XYZ company is, I'm sure your connect rates and your conversion rates are a lot lower than if they have some brand awareness.

No, you're absolutely right. And we're in a world where we're fighting for 1.5% reply rates, you know? Every percentage, or even every hundredth of a percent, counts. And where TAM is dramatically decreasing, right? It's not in a progressive motion. It's not in an upward motion like many like to think, in every claims. But needless to say, what it is that we need to capture what is already there and then obviously exploit and expand.

Well, yeah, one thing on that TAM—like, TAM is such an investment, PE, VC-type statement. When we're thinking about it, we need to really think about total sellable market, people that are actually going to buy from you. Like, these TAM conversations are like—I don't know, I think we get stars in our eyes when we talk about the TAM. And it's just to figure out from a PE, VC perspective, is it investable or worth investing in? But like, when we go to execution on the go-to-market, we need to eliminate that nomenclature out of our mind because if not, we're just going to get a false sense of hope.

Sorry, Adam, cut you off. But no, no, no. But to your point though, at TSM, you didn't cut me off. You might have cut him off, but you didn't cut me off. The battle of personalities. I was just going to say the TSM, right? And that is a great point that you bring up—is going to be substantially lower than a TAM. TAM is a glorified number. There's nothing trackable about it. It basically says that, you know, there's 42,000 people who don't have hair. Well, of course, we're not taking into consideration that people receiving hairline who soon to be—like, it's just such a skewed number. That I'm like, that's not. Again, to your point. But now VC evaluations and all of those are starting to become on their back heel because they realize that those are exploitable numbers.

So again, side tangent. But now, but this is the problem with vanity metrics, right? It's just looking at it in the reverse. It's the same thing as saying, "Oh, we have a 58% open rate. Big deal. Your subject resonates, or your spam checkers are opening your emails. Like, who cares? I don't care about open rates. I care about a few things, and it's changed over the past 30 to 45 days. We talked about it earlier—pipeline meetings booked and pipeline generated. Of course. But how many times does it take reaching out to someone until a meeting's booked? The data shows between 9 and 15.

So if I email Dale and he doesn't respond to the email, and I email him three times and he doesn't—but boom, Dale pops up on my website. And I could see that through all the great technology we have. And now I could create an automated motion to take that website visit, pop it into Clay, validate that he's ICP, or did he push the email to someone below him and say, "Hey, check out this technology. See if it makes sense for us to take a call?" Now, depending on who it is, I send either a personalized video or personalized message, whatever it happens to be. That also is generating interest, right? It might not be the meeting today, but there is an action that was taken from my outbound that is driving awareness. And it's now on us as revenue leaders or outbound professionals to now take that and further convert that.

The days of someone saying, "Man, Eric, this is the best email I've ever got. On email number one, I can't wait to talk to you about your product. Please, you know what, I forget 30. Let's book a 60-minute meeting. Doc sign, yeah, right, send the doc sign right now." Those days are gone. And we're all buyers, and we all know it. So when we're talking about, you know, open rates and whatnot, it's the same thing as TAM. Great, you have a massive total addressable market. The VCs might love that, and that's great. What's your total sellable market? Who can you actually sell to? Who are you going to reach out to that should pick up the phone and have a conversation with you? Because I promise you, it's not your total addressable market at all.

So let me shift. Go ahead.

No, no, no, no, no. I love this subject. And I think I don't think I've been this riled up on an episode in a long time. People buy from people. That's why companies who invest in meaningful connections win. The best part? Gifting doesn't have to be expensive to drive results. Just thoughtful. Soso's intelligent gifting platform is designed to boost personalized engagement throughout the entire sales process. Trust me, I led sales for a Soso competitor, and I could tell you, no one does gifting better than Soso. If you're looking for a proven way to win and retain more customers, visit soso.com.

No, no, no. And I love this, and we could do this all freaking day. You know, for me, a little whiskey. But what it comes down to is the ideology of like this broken outbound model, right? And now we're moving away from the modern predictable revenue and, you know, plug in SDR and throw more bodies at it to a different verification process, right? And that verification process is moving away from the vanity metrics. I'm not going to give an SQL to an SDR and hope that they book me a meeting. What it needs to be is exactly your lead flow. Sorry, did I just throw that out there? But what it needs to be is exactly that—lead flow through a verification process, right? And I can actually sit here and give three BDRs rather than 12 an entirely a list of verified ICP through a total sellable market, whatever you want to qualify. And now we can reduce the steps and everybody talks about speed to lead, right? Like that's the coolest thing since last spread. Now we're reducing speed to lead. Now we're reducing customer acquisition cost. And now we're reducing all the ideas that you know, every influencer loves to talk about—a broken model.

So let's shift gears a second, because we're talking a lot about email, but outbound isn't just email, right? Outbound is email, outbound is phone, outbound is LinkedIn, outbound is any plethora of things. And I tell you what, the other day I got—and I posted about this—I got four phone calls in a row from a number I didn't know. Now, they didn't spoof the area code and prefix because we all know that trick. And anyone who's doing that, please stop. Like, we all know if the first six digits match, that it's spam. But four phone calls, and everyone knows I've had a lot going on with my kid and whatnot. So but like, phone call number four, like, I'm thinking something's really wrong or someone really needs to get a hold of me about something. And I answer it, and it's a cold call.

# Transcript

Both know me well enough. When I'm not slammed, I do take cold calls, so I'm not being a jerk here. But at phone call number four, you could imagine I had nothing nice to say. And then you could imagine that whatever that product is, no matter how bad I needed it, you're dead to me at that point.

Why do people do this? And what is the right way to cold call? It's a leadership problem. I'm calling it as I see it, and I've been on the other side of that one. It's a leadership problem, right? They're told. And most likely it's not like everyone's instinct is going to be like, "Oh, let me call out four times," unless it's me trying to give you grief on a random Thursday, which I do excessively. But needless to say, if I'm actually trying to, human nature is not to be over-bombarded. Human nature is not to be that persistent, right? It's a top behavior. Typically, right? Let's just talk about the typical motion. It is a top behavior. When I was handed a list, right? They were going, "You better call this until..." That narrative is going to skew everything.

So what's happening is a leadership-down method, right? Basically, VCs and we can talk about this all day long. VCs are giving the skewed numbers, then they're not funneling the message properly. They're not giving clear direction, in which case it's going to be a let's just call it a bad method. And then ultimately speaking, right, it's just not going to lead to retained value. Which is simply that if I cold call Adam four times in a row hoping to make that opportunity, well now I just pissed him off and he blackballs the entire company. And guess what? He also has a presence online. And then all of a sudden, now is that snowball effect all because of leadership's incapability of being able to funnel the message, give clear direction, and teach the actual proper methodology.

That's the one. That's one of the things that you said in that message is that people are starting to have personal followings, bigger followings. You don't understand the downstream implications. Like, a lot of times we're getting people are connecting with us to evaluate technology, potentially recommend technology, and we don't use any. We don't recommend any technology we don't use. So I think that part is super interesting. And I think that's one place where an outbound motion, an SDR, a BDR can start figuring out, like getting into communities versus just sitting on the outside trying to do the typical cold calling, emailing, LinkedIn.

Talk to me a little bit about your evaluation of BDRs or salespeople getting in the communities, finding kind of the partnership type stuff where they can hear signals that you wouldn't hear in other places. Like whether it's Rev Genius or Pavilion or any of these communities, talk to me a little bit about the secrets and give the audience a little bit of a sneak peek on how they can do it even better than just sitting on the outside.

Yeah, I want to give a nod to our good friend Scott Lee, right? He posted an incredible post a couple weeks ago. No, Scott, big fan, buddy. Anyways, I was actually talking this weekend about you. Digress. He posted something about it. He is much more likely to hire somebody unbiased to their previous experience to someone who has 100,000 followers versus someone who has one thousand followers. The reason being is because you can argue until you're blue in the face, but your net worth or your network is your net worth. And that is because of curiosity, partnerships that you're actually building, and relationships that you can actually tap on, either behind the times, ahead of times, whatever that may be, right?

And I think, and I will say this again until I'm blue in the face, but the only reason I'm standing on my two feet today after all the stuff that I've gone through, besides my professional market of being able to do outbound, is again through network. That's between connecting with people on LinkedIn, between just building relationships outside of it. "Hey, if you know Adam, I would love to chat with you. Or if you know Dale, definitely kick rocks because I don't want to talk to you." You know, it's that kind of ideology that you want to make sure that you actually preach what you're practicing.

So I'm much more likely when I look at somebody—be an AE, a BDR, a leadership title, whatever you have—what is your presence? What is your connection? And how can I back-channel them, right? How deep is your back-channel? And just having that understanding goes the same with products. There's products I won't touch simply because of experience that Adam had. There's products I would actually give you the time of day just because of the experience that they had. So that all plays into accountability, right? And I always joke about this: no matter how big we think that our world is, it is so freaking small.

100%. It's a very big, very small world out there. That's for better, for worse. Everyone knows everyone. So you're talking to a founder who, any founder, doesn't matter whether you're earlier than Series B and they reach out to you and the conversation is, "We don't have an outbound motion. Most of our business has been either referral-based or event-based, little bit of inbound but not a whole lot, and we want to start an outbound motion." Where do you begin? Where do you start?

Oh yeah. But the very first question I ask is, "Hand me the playbook. Hand me a physical playbook." No playbook or let's call it a process, right? And they say no. Well, now we know where we need to start, right? I'm not going to just, again I use the joke, we're not going to be blindfolded frat guys throwing darts and hoping for something, because I'm not going to blindly promise them meetings. That's not tangible. You know, we're going to be delivering repeatable process. We're delivering foundation which they can obviously teach others and hopefully take to scale. But the blunt question is the who, the what, the why, the when, and the where, right? Those are the simple ideas. When you come into an outbound, be it a TAM, be it an ICP or you know, TSM, be an ICP, be previous message, you know, messaging, success rates. Why did this progress? Why did you contact this individual? Tell me all of those meaty questions. And then that's where we can begin. But without those, we can't even start.

And I think that's where I'm going to hit them where it hurts. That's why agencies fail early founders so often. These people that are just promising meetings and again, I have friends that are in agencies and I mean no disqualification to them whatsoever, with these false promises—just saying, "Hey, I'll book you 20 meetings in the first month." Like you said, right? Our kid, my three-year-old man, he's three and he can book you immediately. Obviously it would be with his gorilla, the stuffed gorilla in his room. But my point being though, you know what I mean? It's the same ideology, right? It's the same narrative. Right? It's a false narrative. And that's why so many agencies fail. And that's why they give people a bad name for building a process because they want that false meeting. That's agencies, that's consultants, that's everyone who comes in and, like Dale, you were probably going to go the same place. I'm sorry. But let me, I could build you a strategy or I could give you a slide deck or I could fix this. And they're so worried about getting, you know, the five, seven, ten, twelve, whatever thousand dollars for a few months that they're so shortsighted that it's, "Oh, I'm going to get this revenue and then it'll be someone else's problem."

Well, yeah. Until Revenue Reimagine now has six clients that came from the consultant who couldn't deliver. And now you have a name for yourself, and it's not the name that you want, right? You don't want to be known as the agency, if you will. And it's one of the reasons why we deliberately decided to never use the word agency, you know, who can't deliver. And there's so many people out there who make these false promises of, "Oh, we all get those emails: What if I could guarantee you a hundred leads a month?" Dude, if you could guarantee me a hundred leads a month—qualified leads—you would be filthy rich and you would not be reaching out to me. I promise you that. You'd be a millionaire.

Yeah, 100%. Really quick, Eric. Where should outbound fall? Should it fall under marketing or should it fall under sales?

Ooh. And I said really quick, knowing that this is not really a quick answer, right?

Right. This is totally in the morning. I was going to pour a beer for that one.

I think it's the bridge in between, right? And it, you know, even the flirting idea now is that should it fall up to RevOps, which is again in no safe form? I think it depends on what stage it's in, right? Are we capturing demand or are we generating demand? If we have a full-function demand gen, we have marketing that is just plugging and chugging in all fronts. If we have a sales team that has taken progression, pipeline that is progressive to close, then we know where it needs to fall. And that's why I always call this the bridge in between. It's always going to have that flexibility. And this is where I see a lot of teams. This is why I don't think the agencies are going to bode well in the future, you know, three to five years I think they...

Have it at an end date because they don't know the flexibility between working between both. Where does it fall? It may differ between days. I may look at, you know, marketing project being great. We're going to capture content. Indication we're going to make that the landing page. Cool. The narration would be to marketing. But if I'm looking to pilot between an ICP matrix or retargeting a vertical, or now we're talking about sales, right? I think that's a swing. I think it's a swing idea in the sense that it's not one but it's all. Yeah, I think it's a swing. I think they sit between. But you got to obviously kind of report up into somewhere. But it's kind of the glue I see between sales and marketing where you're sitting front end with people, with prospects. You can definitely get the insight, bring that back to marketing, but also enable sales to know what marketing is doing from a macro perspective. Like, what campaigns are we running? How are we going to run them? Here's what you can expect. And is that back and forth? I actually think it's a much more important position. We always say it's a really important position, but I actually think it's more important now more than ever, especially if you can tie back to meeting conversions, conversion opportunity types of things. I always think this ends up being a compensation conversation at the end of the day that will then roll into where things fall and tie through the buyer journey. I think it really just depends on where the stage is for the company. Early stage, it's all under one umbrella. I think, you know, the later stage the more separated it may be. But again, that's because the roles are defined, the lines are defined, and there's not really any gray areas in the matter.

All right, let's do some rapid fire as we wrap it up. I'm going to try to think of ones that I don't know the answers for you, Eric. That's hard. We've known each other for a while now. What's your favorite guilty pleasure snack?

Trader Joe's gluten-free cookies with the salted chocolate chips. Is that guilty if there's no gluten? I don't know man. I'm old now. I don't process gluten like I did in my younger years.

I'm with you. My wife brought me some glass of green juice this morning. Yeah, Dale loves it. She drinks it every morning. I drink it every morning. My wife brings me, you could taste the ginger. I literally thought I was like at the sushi. I've been drinking this for ten years man. Yeah, I mean, that's why that person's skin is so beautiful. That's why I have hair. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, okay, I have one that Adam probably won't. Adam probably should know this one. How many texts a day do you get from Adam? Is it on average, or is it a weekend thing?

I think it is. Is it work-related or are we just shooting the breeze?

Work-related. Mostly over the weekend. Let's put it this way: we text so often that we have to define what the criteria of the question is. Let's put it that way, right? That's a better way. It's just work-related over the week. Over the week. Oh, we weekend work-related over the weekend? No, I think we're pretty respectful of each other's time. You know, unless it's like a personal allocation. Now Dale's gonna say why aren't you respectful of my time.

So the next question we're going to ask: what's your go-to productivity hack? Not texting Adam over the weekend. Depends on the founder we're dealing with, right? No, touché. It differs. I don't know. I've been nerding out in Clay a little bit. Are we talking about tool-wise or just in general?

In general. Like for me it's time blocking.

Oh yeah, God no, I'm terrible at that. No, I think productivity hack is—God, I don't know. That's a great question. I'm in the midst of a show where I need your productivity hacks. I'll put a pin in that one. We'll defer back. All right, what's the first half you check when you wake up in the morning?

Oh, instantly. For sure, instantly. Yep, instantly. What's the one word to describe your startup journey so far?

I can't say that. There's kids around. Yeah, good point. No, it's been fun. Or that the F word. We'll switch between it. The F word. Just fun. Just fun. Take us home. Dale. Last one, last one. So, dream vacation destination?

I've had my eyes set on Alaska for a while. I think it'd be really fun to go out there mostly in summer and, you know, either fish for salmon and look at bears from a distance. I think that would be pretty fun.

I love it. Love it. Love it. Eric, I seriously thank you for joining. You're not being paid for this obviously, but I appreciate it. I think that this is definitely something we need to double-click on even more. It's a hot topic. It's one that's super important. And I think it's one that's not only so crucial to get right, but if you get it wrong, you're screwing yourself. Whether that be your domain, whether that be your messaging, whether that be burning through your total addressable market, you can't afford to make the outbound mistakes that you made in the past. Where can people find you man?

I'm on LinkedIn like a thirteen-year-old on Snapchat man. It's a bad obsession, but that's where my ICP is, so that's where I'm at. Yeah, just LinkedIn. Simple, sweet, and simple. Go find Eric. You could also find him at revenueHyre.imagine.com. And thanks for joining man.

Thanks for having me guys. Talk to you. Thanks.