Nobody Gives a Sh*t About Your Startup (Until This Happens) | David Walsh on B2B Influence

Welcome back to another episode of Bridge the Gap, powered by Revenue Reimagined. With us today is David Walsh, who is a three-time B2B SaaS founder who has built and sold a watch brand, an e-commerce company, raised $33 million for an HR B2B SaaS product before finally launching Limelight, which is a B2B influencer marketplace, which is a space that is super hot right now. David, welcome to the show.

Man, I am so ready. I got so much to talk about. Let's go, man.

I love it. Let's go. I love it. We were chatting a little bit before, but you've gone through sales. You've gone through so many iterations and different companies. What is one of the biggest challenges that you've seen from a go-to-market strategy when you're starting up a business? What's that one place you're like, I wish this was easier and it's just not?

Oh my gosh. Dale, like getting people to give a damn. You go ahead and build internal people or external people. I want to—and I don't like to interrupt, but external. Okay, tell us more.

No, like listen, you've got this vision, right? You're an entrepreneur. You're building something from scratch typically, right? So you have this idea that you want to bring to market and then you want to go and explain it to people, right? And the truth is, nobody gives a damn. Nobody cares. They're like, "Yeah, that's kind of cool." Like, if they're your friend, they'll tell you it's great, right? But if they're not your friend, over time, you have enough of those conversations, you realize actually you've built the wrong thing or people don't care enough about this to really go and build it. So the challenge that I see a lot of people have is getting people to care and giving up before actually meeting that momentum. There's always an inflection point where most companies and most entrepreneurs just give up because they've tried it so long and they're just getting pounded with nos every single day, and then finally something clicks.

So Dale, to answer your question: getting people to give a damn about what you're doing.

I'm so happy you said that. I literally just got off the phone with a rep. So we're working with a company and they've done really good. They're ramping. They're getting people. And I had a conversation with the rep and he's like, "How come we're not closing deals? How come I'm struggling with closing the deals?" And so like we start going through the process and it's like it's probably because you're probably in the wrong buying persona and ICP. Your value proposition—like they get it but they don't get enough of it. Like it's not like, "Okay, for $100,000 I can make $101,000." Like that's not enough to make people change. Like you got to have a big enough value gap there. And I said to him like you need more marketing and awareness because you guys are educating too many people. And it's that "give a damn" factor of like people should be like, "I need Limelight. I need..." like they—it just comes off top of your head versus like having to educate them for such a long period of time, which I think is what you're saying.

You also just got to have a lot of conversations. Like you can't just listen to a handful of people and then make decisions. Like data is what you need to rely on. So going out and having conversations, but so many founders screw this up. I'm sorry, but it's like they hear one thing, one negative piece of feedback or conversely one like, "You need to do this," and it's from someone loud and it's like, "Holy crap, Dale said we need to do this, so we're going to go build this." Is this loud or is this important? And I think this is whether you are a baby company or even really big companies. It's like, "Oh, we got to get the CRO on the phone because a customer complained and didn't like this." Like it's one customer who complained. Like is this one customer or is this a subset of a hundred people that are complaining? Like you don't have to get the CRO on the phone because you had one big customer that got a little bit angry.

But when it comes to giving a damn, how do you change that? Because like market awareness is important, right? You know, TAM, SAM, all of these wonderful acronyms everyone wants to talk about, but at the end of the day, I'm a believer, and please prove me wrong. People give a damn when you're solving pain. If you're not solving pain, they don't give a damn. So if people aren't giving a damn, aren't you just not solving the pain, man? Like there's so much I could talk about. I'll start with saying like you have to be able to influence people. You know, like as an early-stage founder, you have to have charisma. You have to be coming to the call with energy. You have to be able to influence them and persuade them. And whether or not you're solving an immediate problem for them or whether or not they buy into your vision is also important. So a lot of people get very upset when the immediate reaction isn't, "I need this right away." Well, then start telling a bigger story. Start uncovering, start asking more questions to figure out what is it that you actually need to solve that if I go and build it, you'll actually use. So asking questions, listening more than talking is really important as well.

I've had experience with Limelight. I think you guys are doing something super cool where you're bringing companies together with influencers to create, at least from what I've seen, meaningful campaigns versus the typical approach of, "Oh, let's just go find someone who has 10,000 followers or 100,000 followers and get them to post." But there has to be a moment, especially in this space because I feel like it's really crowded, right? Like there's a good amount of people who are doing or trying to do what y'all do. Some with software, some with like Google Sheets and themselves, like, "Oh, I do influencer marketing and I connect you to the best brands." Take me back to a moment where you felt everything was out of control. So we're building Limelight and there's this moment where it's like, "Oh crap, we're not going to make it. Our go-to-market is messed up." What do you mean? Like today?

Like what I felt like today.

No, most recent time I felt like that was November. I was going to give up because we had, you know, with startup companies you're constantly iterating, right? And just to be clear, like I had this big idea and thesis that the future of marketing is personality-led. People want to follow people and there's all of these creators like yourself Adam and Dale that have created content, created trusted audiences but not done brand partnerships in B2B. And it's relatively new. It's nascent. And companies are spending a shitload of money on all of these paid ads and getting worse results. Well, why not partner with a group of creators in an authentic way that can drive better return on ad spend? So you know, bringing it to market took a lot of time and a lot of energy and effort and I didn't know if this was going to work. You know, back in Q4 of last year, even as soon as like three or four months ago, we had run a load of campaigns with companies that were sort of investing in this, but then you know, weren't really committed for the long term and just had some bad experiences. And then I was like, okay, I actually don't know if companies are going to come back and spend more money on this channel unless we can demonstrate that it's adding value and driving revenue.

And so we just had this inflection point in December, I would say, so three or four months ago, where everything just started to become easier and more and more companies are thinking about doing this. They're seeing their competitors do it and they're starting to think, should we be doing this too? So it's a fun space to be in.

I agree with you. It's really new. I don't agree with you in that it's competitive. I actually think, you know, we're tracking about 17 agencies that have just popped up doing this over the last 12 months, which is great because it grows the industry and grows the segment with more and more people entering. Just means that there's more and more people wanting this.

How many of those 17 are good?

Yeah, I was going to say you could probably count them on one hand.

Yeah, it's either three or zero.

No, I actually know a few of the CEOs and I have a lot of respect for them. Not every agency is a good agency. I'll also say like some of them have pivoted into this with no idea about B2B influencer marketing and they're just seeing it and they're like, "Okay, we should try this." But they don't have any domain expertise.

You know, so that's how it works. So one of the things that's interesting is this space, as you're saying, is nascent. It's kind of new. It's kind of like this place where if you're going to B2B and people are like, "We got to do outbound, we got to do you know the traditional ways you're doing sales," this becomes like a non-traditional way for most people to do sales if they haven't if they've liked lived under a rock for the last couple years. So they get into this mode of a different channel.

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Which in our world, in some of these go-to-market strategy gaps, is like you're back at a stabilization mode. Like you don't know how to build the foundation. So how would people go about thinking about B2B influencer marketing the right way so that they could test and taste it so then they can go build a foundational element of it?

Yeah, really great question, Dale. The first thing I would say is educating companies and brands. The moment I get on a call, I'm explaining to them that this is experimentation. You want to run as many experiments as you can, and you need to make this authentic. We want the creators to be using your product, be aware of your product, and be able to tell stories of solving it.

Say that one more time.

They have to use the product, they have to like your product, and they have to be able to tell a story about your product. That's the holy grail. I didn't say it exists all the time, but that's the ultimate goal, right? We want them to be able to tell an authentic story about solving a specific problem using your product. And it has to be creative, right? It can't be corporate jargon. Like I work with some of the biggest companies in the world like Alibaba, HubSpot, Zero, some publicly traded billion dollar businesses, and they're coming at this saying, "Okay, so we have this corporate mandate. This is what we want the creators to say." And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. You cannot tell the creators and influencers how to do their job. Their one job is to copyright and create stories, and you need to let them have the creative freedom.

So to answer your question directly: Number one, make it authentic. Get them to use the product. Make sure that it feels trusted. Number two, make sure that you're not telling them what to do and what to say. And number three, come at it with an experimentation creative mindset. Try to do this at scale and run as many experiments as you can, and be okay with failing here and there with the goal of learning, because it is a new space. And we're starting to see a lot of value come from this when you do it the right way.

Maybe the last thing I'll just say is consistency. Don't just come at this and say, "I want to do one post with this one person. That's it. We're done." It's like, no, no, no. You want to form a relationship with a trusted thought leader who's a subject matter expert who has a trusted audience who's going to be the face of your brand long term. That's the way you need to think about this.

Well, and if I just jump on top of this a little bit is the—it's not just about following on social media or social stuff. We get pulled into conversations probably on a daily, weekly basis on tech work in tech, the things that people are doing. Like we just spoke to a company yesterday as a team on revenue operations strategy, you know, numbers from the top down portfolio companies. And like if we're going to start using it and putting it into practice within our world, we usually will test it with some of our clients. Like, "Hey, you know, if you want to work with us, you've got to test it out. We've got to make sure it's working. We've got to test it with our clients." It's not only the B2B influence that you have from a social media perspective, but then we're working with companies on tech stack analysis, audits, reviews, what's working, what's not working. And that is a full-time job. It's changing so quickly. So I would caution companies as they're doing this: Don't just look at social media following, but look at influence outside of the social media realm.

So Dale, like follower count on LinkedIn matters this much. And if you're not watching this, you should say that again for those who aren't watching.

Follower count on LinkedIn matters—what percent?

Zero percent. Nobody should care about the size of your following. Meaning, I've seen people with 200,000 followers get 5,000 impressions a post, and I've seen people with 10,000 followers get 10,000 impressions a post. Engagement is the thing that matters, which comes from quality of content.

Kind of like, without bound, response rates are the only thing that matters, not opens.

Exactly. Results versus fabricated metrics.

Yeah. I think that's in everything. When you look at building a company, and listen, I don't want to call anyone out when they're down, but like this is being filmed around the time of the article about A16Z and 11X. And when we talk about results versus fabricated metrics, I do think this is a broader trend in B2B SaaS where people exaggerate their metrics a wee tiny bit. I think this appears to be a very egregious case of doing such. But you're only hurting yourself at the end of the day. Whether it's funding that you get that you're going to lose because you're going to get sued, whether it's bullshitting about your response rates, or whether it's "I have to get this person because they have 20,000 followers or 200,000 followers," it's not going to help. Short-term mindset is not a good thing in business, period.

And I feel sorry for the guys at 11X, just so you're aware. Like, I had two calls with investors today, and I have been building software companies for 10 years because this is my third company. And I realized that startups are sprints—back-to-back sprints. You have to move as fast as you possibly can in short sprints, and in the run-up to an investment round, that is the most intense period in time. You know, we're going to be going out to raise money next month, and I only care about revenue right now. You know, I'm making some cuts, thinking about how do I make sure that we get enough traction because the truth is my job as CEO is to make sure we don't run out of money and obviously direct the company and do everything else, but it's mostly to say we don't run out of money.

Well, guess what? If you flatline revenue growth, you're going to run out of money, you know, because you're not going to be able to, especially if you're burning cash and raising money and building software, which requires engineers and a lot of money. So I feel sorry. In the sense of like, it's important to have a longer-term mindset, not a short-term mindset in everything you do within business. But ultimately, you need to be able to move quickly and generate enough revenue and enough traction and momentum to attract venture capital investors who are looking for that 100x outcome. And that's part of its storytelling, part of its growth. You know, there's a lot of learnings in this, but going back to like one thing you said, Dale, I think of influencers not just about the reach that they have, it's about the content that they can create. Like user-generated content is incredibly powerful.

You know, I looked at—we were just doing your investment deck literally yesterday. So I went deep into the market and tried to pull out industry trends, right? And I looked at B2C influencer marketing and I said, "Okay, of the total spend in consumer paid ads, how much of a percentage of that is going to influencers and user-generated content?" And right now it's 27%. Meaning 27 cents on every single dollar spent in consumer paid ads is going to influencers and user-generated content.

Well, guess what? We're in B2B. It is less than 1% right now. But the budgets that people spend is maybe 5x consumer products. So my big bet around Limelight and the direction that we're going is that the portion of paid ad spend that goes to user-generated content and creators is going to dramatically increase over time. It's going to go from 0.5% to 20% in the next 5 years because it works. People want to follow people. The consumer mindset has changed. You do not want to follow a corporate brand. You want to follow a person. And part of that is like, how do we find more people being able to tell authentic stories and create content? And then people will reallocate ad spend to those channels. We see it today. We see it happening every single day. It's an exciting space to be in.

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It's what you just said is so true, and I feel like we have this conversation with every founder. Listen, do you need your corporate LinkedIn page? Yes, you do. You need proof that you exist and you're real. But no one—and tell me I'm wrong—but like no one is coming to take a demo or buy your product because they saw a great post on your corporate page.

From your corporate LinkedIn page, they're coming because the founder or the great sales rep who has mastered social selling, or the revenue leader, or the customer, or any combination thereof—that's my opinion. I think that corporate page, where we have a CEO now who's like, "Well, I won't post, but we could post from the corporate site." You might be better off not posting, in my opinion, to be honest.

Well, Adam, let me add another layer to that. I actually think that all companies should not just expect, but they should enable and provide resources for their employees to create content. Meaning, it shouldn't be a KPI that they're held against and they're punished if they don't want to create content. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they should invest in the brands and the personalities and the audiences of their team members because ultimately it grows their own company and their own audience. And I think that mindset has dramatically shifted. You know, two years ago pioneered this, right? Exactly. But has anyone done it great since? Is there anyone you know that's doing a really good job at that? Employee advocacy. Without telling them, "I'm going to piggyback"—without telling them, "Hey, here's the repost button and you could post this, post this, post or this post," because that's not what we're talking about. Let's be very clear.

Yeah, 100%. Well, let me tell you, I think the future job opportunity that people listening to this should think about is I think there's going to be a massive opportunity to come in as a content writer for your team members to tell stories through their own personal channels. And I'm seeing this today—meaning, it's like a training and content writer, copywriter, that actually talks about creating stories in a personal realm. So I actually think that is a big opportunity for a lot of companies to have a team member who helps the other team members create content and get out of their comfort zone. Because let's just be honest, we probably create much more content than most people listening to this right now. And the reason you and I do it—Dale just asked me to write his posts. That's because he asked AI to write his posts. So we'll just say it. We're all getting help from somewhere, you know? But that's the goal, right? That's the thing. It's like, "Okay, what do we hear most about not creating content?" Number one: I don't have the time. Number two: I don't know what to write about and I'm worried that people don't care what I have to say. And number three: I'm not going to be consistent.

So I think that's going to change, and it's going to change pretty quickly with tools and resources. But most importantly, like alignment and incentives from your employer. And I'll leave you with this: What would I rather do? And I'm currently hiring for salespeople right now. So if you're a salesperson watching this, DM me on LinkedIn, only if you have a good experience. But my point of this is: What would I rather hire? Would I rather hire somebody with 500 followers on LinkedIn who's an average, you know, B+ salesperson, or hire somebody with 30,000 followers on LinkedIn who creates content every day that might be a B minus salesperson today? Well, guess what? I'm going to hire the person with the audience, 100%.

So it's interesting what you just said contradicted what you said earlier. You said follower counts don't really matter. But I can tell you, as someone that hires a lot of people, the first thing I do—I don't care about any resumes, by the way. Like don't send me a resume. I go to LinkedIn. I do check follower count a little bit, but then I go right to the posts and I'm like, "Okay, what are you posting? Who are you engaging with? What does that engagement look like? Does it align with the ICP you're selling to today?" Because it's going to shift and change, right? Not everyone can just have a personality out on LinkedIn or any other social media content that's not aligned to what they're selling. So I find it super interesting because I don't care two licks about anything that you're doing on your resume. You can make up all sorts of stories. But I do really care that you are truly, genuinely engaging, and it's not just like, "Hey, thumbs up" or "Like 100%" or like, you know, some hashtag like "I on Adam's content today." But I get tired of posting. I comment. He posts like eight times a day. So it's like, really? I post once a day. My favorite is when I post and someone immediately posts in the comments, "I can help you with your lead generation services." Autoblock. Goodbye.

You know, David, one of the other interesting things that you were saying, though—because I think this is a hidden part of B2B influencers that will go faster and further eventually. Yes, you have to be a good content writer. A lot of people—the very first blog I ever wrote was for HubSpot, and it was based on a college journalist program. They had journalism majors that would interview people, and then they would write the content for them in their voice. And then I look at it and I was like, "Perfect, spot on." They just post it. But if we go like the next level deeper—so content writing, I think that's the easy one to figure out. But back to what a lot of things that we do, we actually end up with budgets in our customers. Like, forget about influencing content. We know how much money people are willing to spend on X number of tech for X thing. And so if companies figure out how to partner with people that have that—I don't know if I would call it budget authority, but with huge influence in making decisions—because the content writers may not have influence in making decisions, but I can tell you in all the customers we work with, we have influence on the buying decision, and it can happen in three weeks. So what may have taken you four months to try to sell, we can do in three weeks. And so that next level will be very interesting to figure out if B2B companies can figure out how to get to that level.

I can give you an example. We have channel partners that have become a huge opportunity for us—meaning agencies or marketing agencies, paid ad agencies, content creator agencies—that have started to refer customers to us because their job is to come in and think, like, "How do we get a better return on investment? How do we grow your company? What are the different things that we're not doing right now?" And for most of the companies out there, they're not doing influencer marketing yet. And so it's a new thing. So actually, channel partnerships have become huge for us, where marketing agencies are introducing customers because they have the same ICP and the same buyer.

Another channel partner that's growing tremendously organically is VCs. I have inside partners—Bessemer Partners, M13, you know, Andreessen Horowitz—giving capital to companies to grow. Ultimately, they're seeing us and saying, "Well, why don't you have people talking about you? Why don't you create this kind of flywheel of content and create this reach and awareness?" So channel partners have come to us because most companies come to help a business, and consultants come to help a business to help them either grow or be more efficient, save them time and money, or be more efficient. So I think our service offering helps companies grow, and that helps us align incentives with others that can be partners with us. So big opportunities for sure.

Yeah. So where's the future of influencer marketing going? And where does it stop? So in the next, let's say, 6 to 12 months—because I think predicting any further than that is really hard, and that might even be hard. Where is B2B influencer marketing going, and then ultimately where does it just plateau? Where does it just stop?

I like to get inspiration from industries that existed already. So I look at consumer influencer marketing and I say, "Okay, what are the trends that happened there?" And saturation was a big one. You know, it went from my Instagram feed being my best friends posting a picture of themselves in New York City at Times Square to being like this influencer trying to sell me a supplement or food, and now it's just saturated with that, right?

So I think your newsfeed is going to see more and more brand partnerships, creator content. What we're trying to do is make it more transparent because what exists today is people are posting content and actually not even telling you that it's paid content. So I think part of it is more content—fingers crossed, better quality, not just cookie cutter templates—you know, actually educational content.

I went to the LinkedIn team headquarters in San Francisco last Wednesday where I met with the leadership team. We talked about influencer marketing and what we've built. I showed them behind the scenes and everything that we're doing, and I basically said, "Guys, this is going to happen. Meaning, this is happening right now, and it's going to happen more, and you better be involved because if you're not, it's going to get out of control. It's going to be wild."

I met with the VP of product for the whole consumer product, and her number one problem was, "I don't want my newsfeed to be saturated with, you know, salesy pitches from influencers and content." And I said, "Okay, then get involved now because it's going to happen if you're not involved and you don't set it up right."

So to answer your question, I think it's going to be more saturation, hopefully higher quality content because LinkedIn really cares about educational content. They do not want sales pitchy stuff. And so I think it's going to be more frequent, more often, potentially higher quality, but that's my fingers crossed. I'm not betting on that. We'll see. We'll see. I'm not convinced.

Why are you laughing, Dale?

I just think LinkedIn is a cesspool of things. But I've seen a lot of people inside of LinkedIn, and I remember back in the day when Koko was there trying to make these modifications and it's just like deaf ear.

Well, LinkedIn is Microsoft. You know, at the end of the day, I think we have to recognize that. LinkedIn cares most about the things they care most about because it's owned by Microsoft: monthly active users, daily active users, constant engagement, constant people seeing value from the product and coming back more frequently and more often. One percent of people post content on LinkedIn. Me, I'm on LinkedIn 20 times a day, way more often than I should be. The majority of people in the United States and globally don't even look at LinkedIn within a month. So their goal is to try to get that broader group of people to come and adopt and be using the product and seeing value from it. Part of that is jobs, which is where they started out with, right? Publishing jobs and seeing job opportunities. Part of it is educational, where they start thinking thought leadership content and like actually learning something from the platform. And part of it is networking, like people come here to actually just verify that somebody's a real person. So they're thinking about it from those three lenses: how do we drive monthly active users and daily active users and penetrate more of the market that don't use LinkedIn. And I would argue that part of that is education and like actually coming and learning something. I think creators, not just influencers, like actually think of them as creators can help create great content that engages people that people actually learn from. Not all influencers and creators are created equal, though.

Ain't that the truth?

So does LinkedIn continue to grow and continue to expand, or are we going to see LinkedIn alienate their user base by changing the feeds to what the feeds are becoming, where you go on and it's like Instagram and every third feed is an ad and I can't even find what I want anymore? I'm done. Hence why so many want to own their own audience.

Yeah. I don't know. Hopefully, I want to see value and continue to come back to LinkedIn. But they move slowly, and so I'm at the front door knocking down the hatch trying to be involved, trying to help where I can. But the product is broken today, and improvements that they try to make sometimes break it even more. So they have to take an experiment mindset. Honestly, here's the truth: they have to reward the people that use the product. That's it. And what's happening right now is they're not rewarding the people that are using the product. Sometimes people use the product frequently and they get less return on investment, less results, and that's just not the way it should be. And I think they're aware of that. I've spoken with the leadership team. I think they're trying to make improvements, but it's just going to take time.

Cool, man. So much to think about, so much that you shared, so much that a chance to touch. I'm trying, man. I'm trying. I only had half a coffee today. It's hard. David, let's do some rapid fire before we wrap it up here. What's the hardest leadership lesson that you learned?

The thing that I would focus on, the thing that I remember the most, the most difficult thing is letting go of forty percent of my staff because I grew too quickly, hired too many people, didn't have product market fit, spent too much money, was going to run out of money and burn all the capital I raised. And so I had to fire forty percent of my staff, sat down with twenty-five people back-to-back in fifteen-minute meetings and let them all go. That was the most challenging thing, and I'll never make that mistake again.

Which hits the next question I was going to ask. So I was going to ask what's the mistake you still regret, which sounds like that one. But I'm going to ask a different one. What if you lost everything tomorrow? What would be the first move you'd make? Like, let's say your LinkedIn followers go down to zero. Now, what do you do?

Oh my god, my follower count that I've just spent years trying to build. You know, I try to stay in the real world with things that actually matter, right? The online digital world that I live in is just to help me make money and help me grow my business. It doesn't define me. So I think it's more important to think about like having fun outside of work. My purpose and my life is built around my job and what I do on a day-to-day basis. I find a lot of satisfaction from that. I enjoy it. I like solving problems. But you need to have a life outside of work. And so, you know, if everything went to hell today, I'd probably be in the exact same space, you know, maybe a little bit less happy and a little bit more upset, but probably feeling a little level of freedom as well.

All right. You're a revenue leader who's listening right now. You're drowning. You don't know where to start when it comes to B2B influencer marketing. You don't know where to start when it comes to any type of influencer marketing. What's your single piece of advice, the most powerful piece of advice you can give them right now?

If I'm a revenue leader and I want to focus on influencer marketing, I think focusing on consistency is the number one priority. Don't take a short-term mindset and say, "I'm going to dip my toe into this. I'm going to try it once or I'm going to tell my team to post content for the next three weeks and then forget about it." You have to create consistency. You know, show up every day. Show up consistently and then good things will happen. Don't have a short-term mindset like everything else in this world.

I love it. Absolutely gold. I think that that is the perfect way to look at things. Anything nine times out of ten with a short-term mindset, you are not going to succeed. Do not be penny-wise and pound foolish. David Walsh, Limelight, thank you so much for joining the show. We appreciate it. Have an awesome rest of the day, man.

Dale and Adam, thanks for having me. Excited to do it again soon.

Thanks, David.