From The Kitchen to the Boardroom ft. Alan Zhao

# WARMLY FOUNDER STORY - REVENUE REIMAGINE PODCAST

You're just backing the credibility and that's the only thing that matters. All that other process stuff, it's just a mechanism to explain how you got there. Other people may or may not be able to replicate it, but the results are the most important.

Welcome back to another episode of the Revenue Reimagine podcast. We have with us today Alan Jiao, who is a former finance and restaurant manager turned self-taught coder. He was the CTO and co-founder of Warmly for three years before he switched over into sales development, the AE side of the house, the CSM side of the house, and now is the head of marketing. I got the privilege of spending some time with Allen last year down in Costa Rica, and now he's here to join us on the show to talk about all things the founder journey for Warmly. Allan, welcome, man.

Awesome to be here. Thank you so much, Adam. I'm sorry you had to spend time with Adam in Costa Rica. It sounds like it sounds like hell, but we can jump off. Thanks for joining.

So one of the things we like to talk to founders about is really like, why did you start the company? Why did you start Warmly? Like, what's the origin story behind Warmly?

Yeah, so before Warmly, I was actually running a restaurant in Dallas, Texas. It was a Vietnamese restaurant. We sold hot soup in the middle of summer, so it's not the wisest choice to make. We made all—I do love me some Thai though.

Yeah, in the winter though, it sells out. I mean, the line's out the door, but in the summer it's struggling. And then our AC broke down, and then COVID happened, so we needed to find something else. I went through this program called OnDeck, which is like a Founders Fellowship where you kind of meet other founders and start businesses together. I met Max, who's our CEO, and we started something called Control Life. We hacked on it as a hackathon project—it was a way for streamers and viewers to vote on what the streamer does next. We hacked it in about a day, pushed it out, got 300 people posting on Reddit, and then from there we just did four more different products before we ended up at the product today.

Super interesting because it's funny—we've interviewed many different founders, but you're like the second or third one that started with a hackathon and ended up into a real company. I love that. It's relationship on deck. There are a few of them when it comes to accelerators, but I think the hackathons are interesting. In companies I've worked at—not even starting a company, but some of our best product ideas started with just hackathons that turned into pretty incredible products. So I think it's super interesting to me that you were in the restaurant space. I spent a ton of time at Toast, got to work with a lot of restaurant owners, and I think it's one of the most difficult arenas to play in and be successful in. To your point, that transition from running a restaurant to tech—that's a big change, right? That's a massive change. When you look at what you were doing before, what are some of the skills that you think carry over? Like, being a good founder and running a good tech company, because I think a lot of people don't realize that running a restaurant is not that simple. Running a restaurant is not like showing up and just making some food.

Yeah, I think speed matters. That's probably something everyone can agree with in the tech sector, especially in startups. Speed is your biggest ally, and in restaurants, seconds matter. It's similar. As a founder, if you're starting a company, seconds also matter too. Your response time in seconds matters. How fast you get things done matters. You can't forget to grab a cup of coffee, go for a walk, eat dinner. All these things in between can take up the day. So if you can get five or six things done because you're faster, then over time that definitely adds up.

In restaurants, you just have two times during the day—lunch service and dinner service—and then the rest of the time you're kind of twiddling your thumbs. So you have two to three hours of prime time, real prime time, and then the rest of it is kind of waiting around. So not to say you're just twiddling your thumbs—you're definitely grabbing ingredients—but that's the time where you're trying to make the most amount of money. And how do you do that, right? Because I think what people don't realize, and I tie this to startups, is you can't just wait for people to come to you. Right? Whether you're in a restaurant and it's like, "Oh, we're just going to sit here and hope everyone finds us," or we launch the next great startup. Dale and I talk to founders all the time where it's like, "Well, we're just going to launch a website and do some SEO and we're going to be a million-dollar ARR company at the end of the year." PS—no, you're not.

How do you talk to me a little bit about running a restaurant or starting a company? The parallels. How do you grow them? Like you said, there's a lot of downtime. So what are you doing in that downtime in the restaurant industry that people don't think of that correlates to the downtime? I mean, there is no downtime in the startup industry, but then come back to growing a startup, like the marketing side of it, like how you guys are actually building those things out.

Yeah, for the restaurant industry, it was a lot about keeping it alive. We were mostly focused on keeping it alive. So sourcing the ingredients—you know, there's just so many little things that get in the way. When I said that you're twiddling your thumbs, it's like things that you didn't think you needed to do, but you still need to get up and go do it. So waking up in the morning because we didn't have enough jalapeño peppers, and then some of our dishes were like five or six ingredients. I mean, pho has probably 20 ingredients—coriander seeds, star anise—and if you're missing any one of them, then it's going to ruin the recipe. So constantly we're trying to do things like we're missing one thing and so we can't serve. We have to waste a lot of time.

And you probably align that to when you're doing your go-to-market, right? Like, I don't know, if you don't have a BDR feeding leads in, then your downstream funnel, your conversion funnels aren't working the way they should.

Yeah, definitely. Sales process for sure. Operationally within the company, if you're missing one small thing—I think about it with a simple example. When you're trying to log in or someone else is trying to log in on your behalf because they need to use your account or something, then you have to pull up your authenticator app, put in the code, pull up your YouTube app, stuff like that. It adds friction to the system. So as many of those that you can remove, the faster and more streamlined your process is, the more you can focus on deep work—the stuff that actually makes money. Same thing applied in restaurants.

I think a lot of restaurants—and like, we weren't in the business for too long and we haven't seen a ton of success—but my hunch is that a lot of restaurants are losing sight of the forest for the trees. You could do a lot with just a little bit of time, but instead you're just bombarded with another order here from UberEats, another problem over there, fire over here, and just constant execution, constant execution. When if you look at the bigger picture, there could have been a bigger play. Maybe you should have sold at stands at a corporate office.

But I think what you just said there ties over really well because you can't be so focused on the execution that you lose sight of the strategy. Conversely, you can't be so focused on the strategy that you lose sight of the execution, especially in startup land. They're both important.

Let's shift gears just to talk about some assumptions. Right? So every time a company starts, there's all these assumptions about what you should do. Your VCs are telling you what you need to do. Your co-founders are telling you what they want to do. You know what you think you should do, and everyone is getting in your ear. There's this echo chamber of, "This is what you should do. These are the best practices."

When you look back, and even currently with Warmly, what are some of those best practices that you've either challenged or just totally said forget it and ignored that have turned out to really help propel the growth that you're seeing at Warmly?

Yes. One of the things people say a lot was you need to iterate towards success, right? Find product-market fit, iterate. You know, we actually focused on a lot, at least on the engineering side, was improving cycle time. You know, like, how fast can you get product out in front of users? And so once you get your cycle down to two days, then it didn't really matter what your ideas were because you just—

Focused on execution, and any idea—like, if when you can't get your cycle time down, then there's politics because everyone wants to get their idea in and you don't have the time, you don't have the engineering bandwidth. We just don't have engineers. Sorry, you have to wait. But when your cycle time is two days, then you're only limited by your ideas and your creativity. So we thought that was the solution to finding product-market fit, and we focused a lot on the product development cycle.

What I think I've realized, especially after this last pivot, is that instead of relying on our own genius to figure out what the next thing is going to be and keep iterating our way there, there is this art of copying. So you should just look down the market, see what was working really well, make a hypothesis of where the world was going to go, what the world needed based on what we knew about this market, and then just start building it. It's really simple actually. We just took that product and we said, "How fast can we just copy that product? Don't change it. Literally do not change a single thing." It has nothing to do with iteration. Do a fast follow—just copy exactly. Do that fast follow mode.

It's interesting because there's many people who think that they have to build a brand new product. Sometimes it's just about building things in a more valuable way to actually help a user execute differently. So it's very interesting. Don't change anything. And then after a certain point, people start to say, "How are you guys different from this? How are you guys different from that?" But by that point, you're sort of in the game. Before, we weren't ever really in the game because the market wasn't there. We're trying to find the market. I think that's where we got stuck for about three years.

And then you were kind of just talking about before we jumped on—you know, you guys were a bit flat and then you guys accelerated through growth. So talk a little bit about dealing with setbacks. There's a lot of times where you're trying to figure it out. You talked about the fast following pieces, but during the journey of your startup over the last few years, where you're dealing with setbacks, what are some of those and how did you navigate those? From like a key lesson to someone that's trying to start a company and get the revenue.

One of the biggest setbacks is when you're not really growing and you've been around for three years. You're not a young startup anymore. You start to see the earlier employees get more and more fatigued. Like I said about the cycle time, we want to move fast. And if you move fast for too long, people get tired, especially if I don't see results. And if you're constantly switching and pivoting and trying new things and it's not seeing results, then people get very tired.

One of the harder parts is bringing people on that I knew—so friends join this company, and who are very good at what they do—and then watching them leave. Right? And these guys gave up a lot of time. So that was pretty challenging to see. And you know, I was thinking that maybe it was a culture problem, maybe it was management, maybe it was something to work out internally. But at the end of the day, I think I got this advice from a mentor: you just need to win. And that winning, or the lack of winning, is actually the root of all these problems.

Would you say small wins—like, dealing with that setback—if someone's going through that process, try to find any of the small wins to stack?

From my perspective, it's just going to be painful for a bit. But someone once said when I was going through this, it was an adviser of mine. He said, "This is going to suck, you know? Like, the sun will rise. Nobody died. Right? You could be in Afghanistan, point blank on point." And so it's going to be okay. But the most important thing is to win. So from then on, just focusing on how do we start to win and what's the biggest problem. Finding the real bottleneck in the system—it's like the book "The Phoenix Project." There's always a real bottleneck in the system, and working anywhere outside the bottleneck is just an illusion. So we did that and we turned things around, and we never really had an issue with retention. Everyone's happy, mission-aligned. Before, it was a rotating door, and now people have been around for two-plus years. We haven't had any churn.

That's something you don't talk to a lot of companies that don't experience churn in some way, shape, or form, right? And I think, depending on the company, what acceptable churn is certainly different numbers. But to say that you know, we haven't really experienced churn is something you should be really proud of. I don't think that you see that a lot. We certainly don't see that a ton. So I think that when we talk about celebrating wins, that is a big win to celebrate.

Allan, you've held a lot of positions at Warmly, right? You're the jack of all trades. You've done everything almost. From the tech side to the sales side to the marketing side—which is your favorite and why?

I think marketing. Tell me why.

Maybe I'd say—yeah, marketing for now. The moment—that's exactly. Dale said one of the best. I don't know how to put words to it. But don't—no, don't give him credit. Come on, he's gonna put that out in a clip and I'm never going to hear the end of it. I'm clipping that clip.

This prisoner, the moment—I got to remember that because for a long time I was trying to put words behind it. But anything I was doing was super exciting. So when I was in tech, technology was amazing—to be able to put anything on a screen and say, "I put that there" and connect it all together. That's fantastic. And then sales was so interesting. I just tried reading all the books out there—like "$100 Million Dollar Offer," "Challenger Sale"—and like, this is fascinating stuff. You can convince someone to do something. Most conversations, you don't have an agenda, but you're able to maneuver it where they feel like they're, you know. But it's all in the interest of making sure there's a win-win. I thought the psychology of sales was fascinating.

So I would say marketing today. I can say all these reasons why marketing is selling one-to-many. Sales is selling one-to-one. And I think the one-to-many is in the scale and doing it all with one person. Technology is super interesting.

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I love that. So let's piggyback off that for a second. So as the evolution of your roles has changed, I'd imagine so has your leadership style and the way that you lead within the company and people teams. Talk to me a little bit about, you know, how having these different roles and also Warmly growing up—how leadership styles evolved.

Yeah, it's maybe before I focused more on process and getting the job routine done right. So in technology and engineering, it was—there's make sure the process was right, people were happy, they know how things were done, here's the onboarding process, process, process.

I guess my own style of leadership, although I haven't been doing it for very long, is to just be right. Because I don't know what more that I can offer that experts outside couldn't offer. And so if there's one thing that I can help out with, it's just the context that I have within the company and just to make the right calls. And having done that enough times, I think I realized that to me, the most important quality of being a good leader is if I was right. Most of the time—it doesn't have to be every time you have to be right, but just more often than hopefully everyone else in the company. Then if you're right, I'm always right. Dale's always wrong. Continue.

Yeah, I mean, it's a funny thing. I mean, you make these decisions, put a lot of resources behind it, and then if you're wrong, then maybe someone else should make some of those decisions. So just being right earns a lot of credibility. And being like, "Hey, it's kind of unconventional for a bit and you may not agree with it, but just trust me on it and it's going to work out." And when it works out, you just bake in the credibility. And that's the only thing that matters. All that other process stuff—it's just a mechanism to explain how you got there that other people may or may not be able to replicate. But the results are the most important. So just we're going to win and we're going to do this. And then when we win, then it gives you credence to say we're going to win and we're going to.

We keep on going and that's really the lesson at least I'm trying to tell the people that I work with. You just want to win and then just go do it.

I hear a lot of self-reflection in a lot of the things that you talk about because I think one of the challenges a lot of leaders have in this space or founders is having that self-reflection, being like, okay, this wasn't working three years ago. We burned people out, friends that you burned out. And how does that leadership evolve from a burnout standpoint, pivoting standpoint? Because you're pivoting a lot. I always say to a lot of people that are thinking about startups, it sounds so great, but if you don't like change, you don't like pivots, you don't like the uncertainty, startup world is not for everybody. And you shouldn't just want to go in because it looks cool from the outside. You never see what's underneath that iceberg.

From a critical decision inflection point that you guys were running, I think you talked about some of the pivoting. But when you started getting a lot of revenue, when you started driving your revenue, what was the critical inflection point to kind of flip that switch?

Okay, so this is interesting because it goes back to the whole art of copying. It's at the point where we started coming up against competitors and them saying, "Oh, you're just this but cheaper," or "You're just this plus that and then cheaper." Then that's when we kind of hit a roadblock and we saw we didn't have as much inbound. Deal cycles were slowing down. This is on top of the economy not being in great shape. What changed was, and a lot of sales and marketing leaders probably talked about this, but you kind of want to set yourself apart and be different, not just better, not just cheaper, but truly be different. So we did a bit of research into this whole category creation process, read the "Play Bigger" book, and then looked at all the competitors out there and how they're positioned. This is the marketing angle of it too, but what's the brand archetype? What do we take on? What colors? How do we position this? What do people feel? What's the personality associated with us? What's that story? You're building that. The new brand, the new category. They say that the category leader takes 75%, and the other number two and number three take 25%. So really trying to say that this is a need. But yeah, creating the category. And once we basically did everything around our Series A announcement, we got LinkedIn influencers involved. We really pushed out as much content as possible. We planned it. We had LinkedIn releases every single day to sort of tease people and what's coming up next. And then finally when the day came, we spent a lot of time on the story of exactly what we wanted to say to the press. We broke it down to three things. They're only going to remember three things. So this, this, and that's our story. That's it. If you take away anything, it's just that. And we put it out there in the world and hopefully it resonated.

So you compete with some pretty big players out there, right? You guys aren't in an isolated space. To your point, I happen to love your rebrand. So when you start talking about who does it speak to and what are the colors, it speaks to me. But when you're playing against some of the biggest in the space, staying agile and responsive is probably really more critical than arguably other startups out there. The market's changing, these folks are trying to one-up you, you're trying to continue to grow your company. How do you do that? How do you make sure, as a team, whether it be marketing or on the tech side or in sales, how do you stay agile? The bigger you get and the more successful you get, how do you continue to stay super agile?

Yeah, I mean, for us, we haven't gone to the point where we're so big yet, so it's a little bit difficult to answer that question. We're still just about 20 people. We don't have many meetings. Me and Keegan meet like once every two weeks, and everything is done through Slack. The hours between 9:00 and 5:00 are extremely valuable. So if you can, you know, let people do what they do 9 to 5 and then just handle everything async, that's the best case scenario.

I have to interrupt you because if people don't hear anything else from this podcast, this is a takeaway. The time between 9:00 and 5:00 is valuable, and let people do what they do. I am a huge fan of as much being async as it can be. There are other companies out there where I feel like there's a meeting to have a meeting. Like, we have to have a prep meeting for the meeting and then a follow-up meeting for the meeting. How do you get any work done?

It's so valuable that I had to interrupt you on that. No more meetings, Dale.

Keep telling me that. I don't know if it's my nature or our company, but we started off remote. So a lot of the small things where hallway conversations you might have in person, we just don't have that. So if you wake up and you have all the information that you need, you can just work from 9:00 to 5:00 and not have any interruption because you had no meetings that day. You can have a cup of coffee and go for a walk. Even that's more productive than a useless meeting. That's how we're set up.

100% agree. I keep telling Adam, "Stop getting memes," but then he texts me 24 hours a day, so it doesn't work either way.

My first text in the morning and my last text at night.

There's a story there. I don't know if you know Anish at Attention, but he was talking about his relationship with Matas, his cofounder, and he said that it's always his first text in the morning and his last text at night. So right after that, I have made Dale my good morning text and my good night text, just to mess with him.

Yeah, we're big believers in giving more than receiving, and you've been generous. Tell the audience what you'd like to give them.

Yeah, so Warmly has a free tool and it basically de-anonymizes your site traffic, contacts, and companies. We give out 150 leads a week. We can up it to 250 if you go to our site and then put in the "How did you hear about us" as "Revenue Reimagined."

He's got a code for us too.

Yeah, it's "revenuereimag." I don't think people realize how much you're missing out on by not taking advantage of technology such as Warmly. There's so much out there that you could understand and learn about your buyers, who they are, what they're looking for, what they want, where they're coming from. And if you're not doing it, you're really missing the boat.

Let's chat about innovation versus execution. So a lot of times startups we work with struggle between what do we focus on—innovation and something new—or do we focus on perfection and execution? This has got to be executed perfectly, kind of what you spoke about earlier, right, about process. How do you prioritize whether it's innovation or execution? And is there a time that you could think of where this balance or shift has really impacted that strategy in the business?

It depends if he's on the marketing side or the engineering side. I know I used to code back in the day, so I get where your head goes. Coding is very much process driven. Yeah, totally agree on that. So it kind of goes back to, at least from the marketing angle that's where I am today, it goes back to this whole art of copying. Because if it's been done before, if you can find evidence of it outside, and something I tell some people I work with is, "How well do you know the market? How well do you know everything that's out there?" And if the answer is, "I haven't looked into it," then why innovate? Because it's not real innovation. So it's probably pretty important to go out and see. From a marketing perspective, especially a coding perspective, like everything's out there already. Chat GPT tools that do this, code that writes that, then go find that. And you'll find that there's very few things that need more innovation. And if it's truly innovative, it's actually a pretty big risk. For us, we're not really innovating too much. Honestly, it might seem like we're innovating, like, "Oh, we're going to try to create this whole media company. We're trying to do this whole branding thing," but it's been done before and people have seen a lot of success. Just not many people. Not everyone has done it yet. So I would even say, for us, innovate less. Then control what you can, what you need to innovate for, and minimize the risk. So just have things that work because, you know, it works. And then try to innovate on the fringes if you absolutely need to.

To differentiate love that, what's the vision for the future for Warmley? What do you think? Like, where do you see your company in the next five years?

Yeah, so I think right now it's probably a race. In the previous podcast episodes I heard a lot of talk about where AI is going to go and how that's going to affect sales. So we are pretty bullish on the idea of this AI SDR. A lot of the data silos are coming down. HubSpot just acquired Clearbit. That's a big move. So now all the data in your CRM can get enriched. And then if you have all the data just crossing over, overlapping, once the data silos like I said are broken down, then you can layer on AI on top of that. And AI advancements are increasing at a very fast clip.

So we are trying to be the AI SDR to capture attention and buying interest at the time when it's most peaked, starting with the website, but it's going to go far beyond that. Eventually it's going to hopefully automate the SDR role itself so that people can do higher, more interesting work.

I want to double click on that for a second. When you say automate the SDR role, talk to me about what you mean by that, because the SDR role means different things to different people, right?

Yeah, it's anything that happens right before the human interaction. Right now what our tool does is, someone comes to the website, we identify who they are, their company and contact. We find the buying committee of the company and then we find the personas that you care about. We automatically put them into email and LinkedIn sequences. And then when they come to the site, we have an AI chatbot that talks to them. When they respond back to that, then your AE or SDR gets looped in.

So it's all that stuff that needs to happen before the human interaction. But it's pretty important because the website is the easiest example. When someone's on your site, they know your brand. They know who you are. And so they're thinking about you. It's that moment when someone is thinking about you. Can you get them there? Because seconds after that, they've already moved on to the next thing.

That whole process, not just the site but everywhere. If you have a hot dog stand outside of a bar at 2 AM, it's going to sell out when people are done drinking. Right?

I love it. Let's do some rapid fire as we wrap it up. Let's have a little bit of fun.

You're not in tech. You cannot go back to the restaurant industry. What profession are you going to be in?

A professional Bachata instructor. A professional Bachata instructor, I don't think so.

Bachata is a Latin dance. It's the most beautiful thing. It's like salsa but salsa is more fast-paced and then Bachata is more flowing. It originated in the Dominican Republic. It's gone across all across the world, and it's beautiful to do. It's good for the soul. You dance, you listen to music, you dance to the music. It's kind of choreographed and it's kind of impromptu as well. Very creative. Two people partner dance can create a beautiful thing. I want to be an instructor for that.

That's very cool. I like that.

What's the first app you check when you wake up in the morning?

I think it's my Slack, which is pretty depressing actually.

Similar to most people. They say that and the next thing they say is, "Well, that's kind of depressing." Mine is not. It's the weather. The first thing I check is the weather. You have to go outside during the day.

That's nice. Yeah, right.

Working from home as sometimes, where do you start first? Marketing or sales? Where does a company start first in terms of building go-to-market? New startup. What's more important? Marketing or sales?

I think marketing is more important for generating demand.

Right. Or wrong answer, we tend to go about 50/50. Haven't explained it, but I'm sure you have a great reason. Please go ahead.

Because when we were trying to sell a problem, we had a great sales team, great process down, but it wasn't selling. It wasn't closing. And it's not because we weren't sending enough emails. Sometimes we'd send a ton of emails, highly personalized, but it was more like people just didn't understand that they had this problem.

And when they don't understand that—because our battle is not necessarily against competitors. It's against what people's priorities are. Like they, the head of marketing at a company was focused on so many different things. Why would they ever care about this problem?

So if that awareness isn't there, then they're not going to respond to an email you send them or a cold call or even if it's personalized. And if you don't have a good brand, then it's even worse in this day and age. It's not about what you do. It's who says it. If you don't know, like who, not what. So if people weren't talking about you or talking about your problem, like "Oh, you should care. Adam says this. You should probably care about this problem," then they're not going to be interested. So it slows everything down if marketing's not there.

That makes sense.

What's the most used emoji in your work chats?

I think it's the thank you emoji. Yeah, the added that one. The thanks. Yeah, we have to ask people to do a lot of things all the time. So it's, yeah, the thank you emoji. I love it.

I don't use the thank you emoji nearly enough. I think the thumbs up one is the one for me.

Last question. What's the one word you would use to describe your startup journey so far?

It's been a blast. So there's no, the downs were not real downs. Just the fact that we could do this at all was amazing. So every day it's just been a complete joy.

Go ahead, Dale. Take us home. You said the last question, so I guess this is really the last of the last questions.

He screws us up all the time, Al. Don't worry about it.

So your dream vacation destination?

I like Mexico City a lot. I think Mexico City is, for the people that know about it, they will agree with this, but it's definitely a mini paradise that hopefully will stay that way.

You know, it's very international. It's close to home. People can still speak English. Very affordable. The food is amazing. The people are so warm and kind and friendly. And the weather is awesome throughout the year.

That'll be it. That was not what I had in mind, Dale, but all right.

Allan, thank you, man, for joining. This is what I wanted, Dale, to do. Apparently Dale thinks because I was in radio I have to do every opening and every closing. But thanks for joining, man. I think when I look at what you guys have accomplished, the pivots you've made, the shifts you've done, super inspiring given everything that's happened in the tech climate over the past 18 to 24 months. You all should be really, really proud of yourself. The changes you've made and the products that you've built.

Where can people find you? Where can people learn more about Warmley?

You can check us out on our website at warmley.ai and then you can also find us on LinkedIn. We're very active there, so feel free to connect with us. I'm Allan Z, and then my co-founder and CEO Max Greenwell, who's been posting a lot. So look out for his posts.

Awesome. We appreciate it, man. Cheers. Really appreciate you guys. You guys are fantastic. Thank you.