6-Figure Sales Strategies ft. Marcus Chan

I'm big on feedback. We're having feedback, right? Because like every time you do something, there's going to be an equal opposite reaction. So what's that reaction? How can you take those data points and how can you make a better educated decision on what to do?

Welcome to another episode of the Revenue Reimagine podcast. We are all going to sit here and rub our chin in honor of Dale. We are stoked. We have a very special guest with us today. We have Marcus Chan, who is the president and founder of Venley Consulting and the author of Six Figure Sales Secrets, and probably the best person on LinkedIn with a video that I've seen in a while. Marcus, welcome to the show, man.

Hey, what's up gentlemen? I'm pumped to be here. Thank you for having me on.

Yes, definitely. I mean, you must only be talking to me because Dale's not a gentleman. But we are pumped to have you here.

Yes, absolutely. Thanks for joining.

We'll start off quickly. If you weren't in sales or you didn't run sales groups, what other GTM function would you run and why?

You know, that's an interesting question. Never been asked that before. But I probably would go into probably the operation side of the business. And the reason I say specifically is because I used to run Ops in the past as well. And I think because of that, it gave me a better understanding of how to sell—not just to operations people, but also understood the business better so I can have better business conversations, et cetera. But on top of that, I like to build and fix things. And when you're in operations, basically all you do is find constraints, fix constraints. Which is fun to do. And I think I naturally lean towards that. That's actually why I'm probably more detail-oriented. I've always heard from prospects that I'm one of the most detail-oriented salespeople they've ever worked with because I think in the operational background.

So I think for me, I think it would be a pretty easy answer.

You and I are very much alike. I geek out on all the RevOps stuff. And typically with our clients, I'm the one who's doing all of that. Dale hears the word Salesforce and he turns off his Slack and doesn't want to talk to anyone. I'm like, what can we build here? How can we automate this? Make it easier, more efficient?

So a lot of startups and a lot of founders—our ICP is specifically seed to series B. And we speak to a lot of founders who don't have big Ops teams, right? They arguably don't have anyone in RevOps. What advice would you give them? Folks that you've worked with before where there's no one in RevOps, they don't know about Salesforce, and their initial reaction is, well, let's just go hire someone offshore and give them Salesforce admin access. Is that the right way to do it?

Well, I think it's a dangerous gamble first off. If you were just to do that, because depending on who you want to bring on, I think first off, number one: if you don't know the answer, you also don't know what to build. You don't know all the parameters of what you actually need to put into place that's going to be something you're going to want to enjoy and use long-term, right? And I think it's important to understand that.

So I want to say number one, you want to hire somebody to help you with it. But it's hiring the right person who's almost like a technical advisor that can help you—not just do what you want them to do, but also provide you insight into what's a better way of doing things.

I'll give you a really simple example. So I'm pretty good at visioning stuff, but building it is not my strength by any means. I can create the vision for it, but I still need help with actual implementation and automation. So even for my own business, early on I'm trying to build everything. I probably have a vision, but the actual how—I probably Frankenstein things together. You know, I'm gluing things together with Zapier and doing all these things. And it works, but it also breaks a lot.

So then I'm like, okay, what I need to do is I'm not being a good CEO or founder in my business. I need to go and find somebody, vet them properly, and have them do all these things, build for me. But I don't want an order taker. I don't want someone I can bring in and say, "Hey, just do this," and then they do it and it still has all these issues because I basically missed some other connection points I might need down the road.

So instead, I took my time, brought in a tech advisor to work with me directly. And he not only built it out for me, but we actually broke down and took a look at what it should look like going forward. So he can make different recommendations on the best tech stack to have, how to connect it together, and other insights as well.

So I think how you get the right person is key. But you don't want to do it yourself, especially if you don't know what you're doing.

Yeah, and it's the strategy pieces that you're trying to ask for as well. It's like you don't know what you don't know. And I think where Adam and I talk with a lot of founders—they're like, if you get into Series A, Series B, a lot of it is still gut because they don't have the technical expertise. They're like, I think the pricing should be this. I think our ICP is that. I believe. And a lot of it, they're selling to their own network.

So at what stage in the organization do you start bringing in people to help you get out of the pattern of your gut and start getting into the data aspect of it? Is it super early? Is it Series A? Like, where do you feel people should start getting that expertise?

Well, hindsight is always 20/20. I think the sooner you can get data for anything, the better it's going to be. And that's just across the board, even if it's not the best data, right? So you start getting data regardless of whatever funding stage you're in. You start with: what are the data points right now that help me come to this conclusion?

So for example, whenever I'm thinking from a mental model perspective and making a decision in my own business, instinctually we have a lot of gut feeling. Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong, right? But I say, hey, what are the facts? If I believe this is a constraint to my business, what are the hard data facts I could look at? Okay, now what are maybe some of the other data points that are a little more subjective that'll build into it? And you want to decide from there as a result.

But this is actually why I think it's really important that as a founder, you are hanging with people who have already done what you're trying to do at a bigger level. Yeah, because they're able to see things in advance. Like, oh, you're totally botching this, Marcus, you know? Or, hey, actually, you need to see this. You're not looking 24 months down the road. Or, hey, you're only selling to your network. So you actually don't have a cold-friendly offer. Yeah. You're only good at selling to people that already know, like, and trust you. So your sales motion may only be good for that type of sales cycle. But for cold, you're going to struggle.

And I think you said the right thing. Like, a lot of people we talk to, they're like, well, I don't know what the data is. Or they'll say the data, and it's wrong. It's like, that's fine. The data is a point in time, and you can correct it. And you can manipulate data as much as you can manipulate your gut. So you kind of have to have it in both sections.

100%. You definitely need a combination of both because the data only tells you part of the story. Because if you have the data wrong, then you might come to the wrong conclusion, even if your gut is telling you something different.

100%. So Marcus, you work with a lot of sellers, right? Like you wrote a book for crying out loud. And people take that advice and they go sell, and hopefully they sell really good. And I've seen your testimonials. I actually know people that you've worked with. Shout out to Reed, who have been wildly successful following your methodologies. But when you look at the economy today, when you look at revenue today, stuff that worked before doesn't work now. How are you challenging people and even yourself and your own business to kind of think outside of the box? And you know, we'll use a pun here: reimagine revenue. To adapt to the ever-changing environment.

Yeah, so I think the difference is between learning tactics versus learning strategies. And I think a lot of salespeople chase tactics without realizing it. Hey, say this one-liner. Write an email this way. Say this on a call. Try to get them to close. Those are just tactics. When you learn strategies, strategies land the test of time. That's just the reality. Now, how you implement the strategy may shift, but the psychology behind it never really changes.

Those who are watching this live, you know we're not young guys. We've been on the block for a little bit, right? So we had to sell through some tough times.

Yeah, like we had to sell through the last recession, maybe before that. So we saw the rise and fall of what it's like to sell in good and bad times.

Yep. And I think a lot of sellers today, if they start to sell in the last say ten years, they're kind of like, "Whoa, this is hard." Yeah, this is hard because now they're starting to sell into, you know, I don't think it's considered a bear market. You know, depending who we talk to, but like the economy is tougher. So like people's budgets are tightening up. There's different rules get put in place in companies where certain thresholds can't get approved for certain dollar amounts. You know, people are not optimistic, so as a result, it's harder to sell.

Yep. But if you've been selling since at least 2007, 2008, you know that was a more scary time. Older people, like the business, right? Business exactly. And they're all like, "It's all like peaks and valleys, right?"

So it's interesting you're talking about the strategy aspect of it versus the like these tactics, like what's the easy button? I think Adam's got one in his back that he tries to hit once in a while. I don't have an easy button, and it's the pendulum swing, right? Like what's going to happen is we're going to pendulum way the other way, and then we're going to figure out like, "Okay, there's something else in the middle."

But I think about this time similar to the dot-com bust where people were like, "There's no way people are going to go back into this realm and get into a place where they're not doing due diligence, they're not executing strategy." But we got back into it, and then you know, nothing about automation, but you had a lot of automation and people sending out blast emails. And I blame marketing most of the time. Like usually if something's really good, marketing will destroy it.

But I think we go through that. Making all sorts of friends on this show. Yeah, I think we go through the pendulum pieces. You're 100% right, and that's where it's like, you know, I think about when you think about sales as core, it's learning how to influence people, change behaviors, and get people to move and take action because you're working with human beings. So if you understand that to be true, you're going to learn strategies based off human psychology, not tactics, right?

So I'll give you a really simple example. I have a really simple voicemail script that I use, and I teach the psychology behind it. That's why it works. But I teach the tactic people can actually implement the tactic, and people get really stuck on is like, "Oh, but I said the script and it didn't work." But your tone was wrong. Everything was wrong. The tone was wrong.

I could get on the phone and say, "Hey Marcus, how are you?" "Hey Marcus, how are you?" "Hey Marcus, how are you?" Like, depending on what you're saying to your point, the whole strategy of how you're saying it, you're going to get a different reaction to every single one of those.

100%. 100%. And that's where, you know, I think people get really stuck. They're like, "Oh, like I think even for a go-to-market plan, you know, some people want to go for like LinkedIn, right? Like, 'Oh, is LinkedIn now the thing we should do, right now?' You know, like, should we do this? Just go DM people and do nothing else and watch your sales skyrocket?"

And what they're misunderstanding is the timeless strategy of finding where your prospects hang out and reaching them with relevant messaging. That hasn't changed. Whether it has been the telephone, whether it has been the fax machine, whether it has been the telegram, whether it has been email or social, whether it's Twitter or X, now it hasn't changed. It's a tactic of what you're delivering, how you're doing it that determines your end result.

But you need to understand the strategy behind. When you understand the strategy, then you can take those mental models and you apply them to other parts of the business. This is why you see some businesses are massively successful because they look at what someone has done in one market as a strategy and like, "Um, let me try it in like the European market now," and they crush it.

But why is it so hard for people to do this? Because like, I have a client now, and your use case that you just said is very true. They can't understand why we can't just go DM a bunch of people on LinkedIn. I mean, PS, the client doesn't even live on LinkedIn. I mean, that's reason number one. If you're not meeting people where they are, like people say cold calling is dead. There are industries where email is dead and cold calling will book you meetings all day long, and vice versa. But we get in this echo chamber that's known as LinkedIn of, "Oh my God, like cold calling is dead and don't ever cold call someone," but it works.

Why are people so reluctant in your mind to look at the broader picture of strategy, and they get so hung up on the tactics?

Well, so I think there are a couple reasons. I think number one, the reason is, um, if someone has a belief in their mind, true or false, they will find any data point to justify that belief. So for example, if they are struggling with cold calling, they go on LinkedIn, hear a bunch of people saying it's dead, like, "I knew it. I'm right. Yes, right. It's not just me. I don't just suck, right?"

Right. It's like the reality is like data is flawed in that way because you can find the opposite. If you look for something else, like that is working, you'll find that too, yeah? You know, it's kind of like I can't remember what the effect is, a psychological effect, but it's like if you want to go buy a white, you know, a white Toyota Camry now, right? So you start, you posted about that at one point, I think, because I remember talking about this. So we have that almost like we create the echo chamber, right? That's our first piece by ourselves. That realization we create for ourselves.

The second point is, um, in order for you to make a shift mentally to like a new way of thinking, you have to have some sort of critical thinking skills. And I find generally speaking, most people read things as binary: black or white, yes or no. And that's just not the case. Like it's okay, if this strategy worked in say the US, will it work in Europe? Hopefully, but the question is, what do we need to tweak to make it fit in Europe? And Europe's pretty expansive with many countries and many different cultures. What can we adjust to make it fit? The strategy makes sense of what they did, but how do we adjust it and apply it?

A mistake a lot of people make is they don't apply critical thinking skills. They try to copy and paste. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

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Yeah, yeah. And you have to be okay with it not working. Like, you have to be okay with the change. Like, and people do this in segments as well, right?

"Okay, we sell the mid-market well. If we just take the same mid-market approach and sell up-market, we'll make more money. Average deal size will go up." But then they don't realize the unit economics works differently as well. Like, it may take you longer. You have bigger decision makers. You may have to...

They don't think through customer acquisition costs. They don't understand LTV. They're like, so people are making decisions based on flawed gut feeling sometimes, and not really looking at the data and understanding if I'm going to go into two segments or I'm going to go into two regions, even if you have a segment within a region, you probably have two different funnels.

Yes, you can have a baseline of, "Here's the ICP. Here's the buying persona. Here's your value proposition." But just be willing to be able to tweak it two months on the road.

Yeah, it's kind of like I picture like if you're going to start going after like a new market, maybe you work really well in Market A and then Market B. You all these chains—it's almost like you have a spear that's kind of sharper at the end. You're going to throw it. You might hit some things, maybe get some animals, who knows. But you're like, "Oh man, these are like way bigger animals than I expected. So I need a bigger spear. Why? I need a sharper spear." So you start to sharpen the spear, and then over time you start refining. Like, actually, the spear doesn't even work anymore. We actually need a bow and arrow. They way too fast. And you're going to start refining over time. That's where...

I'm big on feedback. I have a high feedback loop, right? Because every time you do something, there's going to be an equal and opposite reaction. So what's that reaction? How can you take those data points and how can you make a better educated decision on what to do? It's all about weighing your risk, right? So it's not like 100% it's going to work for sure. It's like, okay, how can I reduce my risk of it not happening or not working the way I want it to work? How can I increase my upside a little more? How can I decrease my downside? You start having data, you make educated bets based off that.

You make it sound so simple, right? Like so easy. I mean, it's so easy if it was so easy, we'd all be unemployed because people would just figure it out. But the fact is, you hit it on the head, right? We are predisposed to think what we want. Even if you tie it to personal—I have a friend who's going through a divorce, and everything his wife does annoys him. Why? Because in his mind, everything she does is going to annoy him, whereas the average person maybe it doesn't. But I think you have to, and it takes a special skill to step back from your predisposed notions and look at things objectively and be like, wait a minute. I am predisposed to thinking this because this is what I want this outcome to be versus let's take a step back and look at what I can or should be doing to try to derive a different outcome.

It's something Dale and I talk about all the time. Dale always thinks that he is right. When we step back, we realize that he's wrong, and it goes much better for our clients.

It's because human beings make decisions based off what we justify as reasonable, not rational. We don't put ourselves in the other person's shoes a lot, right? Because, back to what you were saying on the rational side of it, Adam might think he's right, but he's probably not right. So if you put yourself in the other person's shoes, you have a different perspective of things.

I think psychology and mindset is a big part of this whole thing. If you think you're always right, if you think you're going to be right, you're probably wrong and you're missing blind spots. I think that's one of the reasons why Adam and I started collaborating together. Because even in the same world, if you're successful, you still have blind spots. Customers and founders have a lot of blind spots. They need help just recognizing where those blind spots are—not listening to the echo chambers that even their VCs or people that are funding them or some of the advisors they have.

You don't want to get too many people in the mix because then you can't decipher what's right or wrong or different. This is where the gut comes in. But I think you have to have opposing viewpoints. That's why you see famous people, athletes—all these people don't want yes people in their circle. Because if you end up getting yes people in your circle, you get like Antonio Brown, right? And like, who the heck knows what's happening with that dude.

This is why you take a look at someone like LeBron James, right? And how much he invests in having external staff just to coach and guide him. Right? For a reason. He wants to be challenged. When you read any of Tim Grover's books, they talk about coaching Kobe and Michael Jordan. It's the same thing. He'll challenge them for a reason. Because even though these guys are the best of the game, they know they still need to be challenged. They need external viewpoints that are going to help them become a better version of themselves.

It's the same for sales pros and arguably sales leaders. I've been saying for a long time that I waited way too long to have a coach. But once I finally got one, it leveled up my game. The reason isn't because my coach tells me, "Oh, Adam, you're doing a great job." The reason is because my coach says, "Do this differently. Think this way. Challenge yourself. That was good, but that wasn't great. You want to do great? Do that." I think when you talk about LeBron and MJ and Kobe, it's exactly that. They might be at the top of their game, but how do they keep getting better?

Marcus, one of the things we like to do at Revenue Reimagine is get back to the audience. You were grateful and gracious enough to provide something to the audience. Tell them what you're giving.

So the first ten people who listen to this and send me a message on LinkedIn with the name of this podcast and say, "Hey, please send me your book"—I'll send you my Wall Street bestselling book for free. I'll get you the eBook ASAP once you send me that DM. First ten people to do that. I mean, I paid for it, so the fact that people are getting it for free is pretty huge.

Maybe I'll hook you up too. Listen, it's funny. Only read with pictures? I do only read. There are some diagrams in there. But the fact is, and I've said this for a long time with what I'll call friends or colleagues, if you're selling a product and I believe this very strongly, it's our job as a sales community and as a community of entrepreneurs and solopreneurs to not ask for it for free. My job isn't to bring your CAC up—it's to bring it down. If we want to support you, the best way you could do that is by paying for it. If you get value by sharing it, not by saying, "Hey, man, you're a buddy. Could I get it for free?" Yeah, no happy to pay for it unless it's one of Dale's assets, in which case I'm not happy to pay for it. I'm going to go steal it out of his Google Drive and hack it later.

There's a reason I'm the admin. It is true. It's a good thing I have an EA.

All right, let's shift gears. We're going to go into a little bit of rapid fire. Your answers have to be ten words or less, or Dale says he's going to cut you off.

What song would best describe your revenue strategy?

Usher, "Yeah." Let's just say yes, baby, let's go.

If you had a crystal ball, what's one revenue trend or strategy that's happening right now that's going to be mainstream in the next twelve to eighteen months?

High quality communities referring leads.

I like it. Nearbound. Go to network. Exactly.

Hey, need to get new software for X. Who do you know? What does that mean for traditional outbound? Is outbound dead?

No, I mean, I think it's just another source of leads and revenue for you, right? It's all doing like all the above, because obviously, that level of community game—saying, "Hey, I recommend this product or this company, this service"—is a result of your organization doing good work for a long period of time and earning those stripes to be able to do that. That doesn't happen overnight. The cold outbound—the cool thing is you can start that right now. You start doing that as well. Obviously, the conversions are going to be lower because it's a different type of lead source, and you're not getting like, "Hey, I'm the CEO here. I recommend this." But it's not dead by any means. It's like ABM, right? You're surrounding this prospect.

I mean, the last few things that Dale and I have purchased have all been based off of someone saying, "Hey, this is great. Go look at it." It hasn't been from someone cold calling me.

And I think if you're a really strategic founder, you're creating an omnipresence everywhere. Absolutely. So it's not just in their email, cold call on LinkedIn. You're also doing cold outbound. Your execs are in the channels as well. Maybe you're doing trade shows. Maybe you're on podcasts. But you're also maybe doing retargeting ads as well. So now you're starting to see everywhere—on Google ads, Display Network, YouTube, etc. So you're hitting all these different angles depending on where they are on the journey and you're going to move towards the close. I think in that space, going back to the spear analogy, like now you know how big the spear is.

# Transcript

How big is the head like you? You have a lot more data going back to, like, okay, I can continue cold calling you or co-emailing you, or I can know that this isn't something you're going to buy or need a bigger sphere.

That's right. Exactly right. I like it. I like it.

What, um, Marcus? What's like one little secret, one lesser-known tactic, one little trick that's made what we call a surprising difference in your revenue outcomes?

That's a good question because I have many secrets, so I'll only share one with you. We want them to buy the book. Well, I would say it's not necessarily a secret, but you can create an omni-channel presence for free by usually using sweat equity, right? And that really has helped me quite a bit. I'll give you a really, wait, can I keep going? Should I explain this?

Okay, I don't want to break your rules here.

We break them all the time. It's all good. We try to enforce them; it never happens.

Yeah, so, you know, I remember when I started my business and I'm like, okay, I want to run as lean as possible, minimize any type of cash, keep my monthly burn super low because I'm a startup. I want to maximize it, right? So I'm like, okay, what can I leverage that's completely free that can give me leverage? And that's social media, right?

For example, I chose LinkedIn. My audience is already on there. So what I started doing was number one, I started posting content. Most people start posting content, so I started posting content. And that was obviously very, very easy, but I was also very intentional with how to become omnipresent.

So it wasn't just me posting content, but what I would also do is spend about an hour commenting on 25 different people who had the same audience I wanted to borrow from onto their posts. So I knew I could expand my eyeballs from there.

Now from there, what would happen was people would like and comment, and I would get more connection requests. As I got connection requests, I would open it up. I'd send a personalized video message. Early on, every single person that was in my ICP, a personal video message.

So it started happening. They would see me now in their inbox. They'd see me on other people's threads, on other people's posts. They'd see my own content, right? And then from there, I started expanding a little more, get a little more advanced. And I started to get my way onto major podcasts.

So now I'm borrowing their traffic as well. Now I'm in their Spotify, right? They put the video on YouTube. Now I'm on YouTube, etc., right? And it starts compounding over time.

What ends up happening is now my name started ranking higher in SEO, and now when you Google me, it shows higher. So you start—this is a very subtle strategy—now I'm everywhere.

As I started to get more advanced over time, I'm like, interesting, what else can I do that's also a very good way to become omnipresent? I'm like, interesting, I could put a Facebook pixel onto my website for people who hit certain pages. And now when they go off platform, I can hit them with all those ads—retargeting ads on Instagram and Facebook and also Google ads. I did that as well.

So her pays on a dollar, right? So now I appear to be moving people in the funnel, right? So now I become omnipresent. So then over time, I start stacking more and more and more, right?

Okay, cool, all right, cool. You know, I got into the Forbes Council, so I'm posting more articles. So I get the SEO from that. I'm on a lot of different podcasts. Over time, I start stacking. Over time, so now when someone searches my name, I have most of the search results—despite a very common last name—on the first page.

Yeah, so you start becoming omnipresent, and people start seeing you. Like, "Oh, I see you everywhere. I saw you on this person's podcast. Oh, I read your book. Or I saw you on, like, I'm seeing all your Facebook stuff. I'm seeing all your Instagram stuff, right?" So that level of me basically being everywhere they are is a really powerful strategy.

Because at the end of the day, we all know when you first reach out to somebody, timing is half the battle, probably most of the battle, realistically, right? Yeah, so now if I'm following them around everywhere on the internet, it becomes very, very powerful.

That's actually why I wrote the book. Because when I wrote the book, now I follow them at their home as well, because now the book is on their desk. Books are about their bed. So now I'm in a whole different way. In addition to all I mentioned, I love it. I love that. Love that omnipresence.

Last question. Earlier in the show, you said that you were going to be an operations leader tomorrow morning. You're grabbing a cup of coffee, some tea, whatever you drink in the morning. What's the first thing that you're doing?

First thing I'd do—if I didn't already have it set in place—I would set meetings with every single department head. All right, that's the first thing.

From there, I want us to identify who are the locker room leaders—who are not leaders, but they're in the field, the front line people, right? So for example, if it's a sales leader, I want to talk to the BDRs and the sales reps. I want to talk to, like, who are the locker room leaders, right? For CS, I want to know, like, people that I can trust, right?

My number one goal is I need to get a lay of the land from every single viewpoint. Really important because what I don't want to do is come and build some great grand strategy and plan and completely botch it if I don't have buy-in from the team. And I want—number one—I need to define exactly what the problems are. Number two, then I can actually prioritize what the biggest levers I can pull to actually move things or identify any type of red flags, burning fires I got to put out, or any issues. And then from there I can actually start building a plan together, actually implement this type of strategy for whatever needs to be done to start moving the needle, right?

Again, as we all know, not every problem is important, right, or time sensitive? So we need to identify what the right ones are. And also, on top of that, find out who can you trust?

I love the locker room leader. Yeah, picture like, I think that makes a lot of sense. Got to have them because they'll help you when you implement change for any part of the organization. You know, the number one obstacle you have to run into is getting adoption from the people.

Yep. One hundred percent. So if I can't get them bought in, then I'm going to fail every initiative I run.

Absolutely. Like, get the locker room leaders bought into me first, get them sold on the way we're going to do things in a greater future, and get them involved in building the future out. Then I'm going to have better implementation, better strategy implementation, more ideas, realistically probably better ideas I'm going to have. And on top of that, we're going to run a better organization too.

I love that. Incredible. Love it. Awesome, Marcus. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day for spending some time with us.

For listeners, where could people find you? What's the best way to get in touch with you, man?

My pleasure to be on here. Thank you, guys. You two were both gentlemen, right? I promise, right?

So he's never going to let this go.

Yeah, you can cut that little clip and just have it on replay as a little guff. He's a gentleman. He's a gentleman. He's a gentleman.

You can hit me up on LinkedIn. Head to my website, bleconsulting.com. But I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Thanks, man. Cheers. Thanks, man.